Everything according to Mike. He thinks all of us have gotten it all wrong. That gods were people that we wrote stories about.That's what he's always blathering on about? Okay then. I'm still trying to figure out what he thinks Hinduism has to do with Judaism. Or "Juda religion" as he calls it. This guy really needs to look into the words 'proofreading', 'coherency', and 'organization'. Yeah, I tried that approach with him. I read the long posts on the first few pages of this thread, but I'm done now. He says he's making it simple for us, then later he'll say it's too complicated to explain. He says he has spent years on this and has file cabinets full of notes, but he won't reference a single author. He's taken the "do your own research" approach to any objections. He makes connections, like Hinduism to Judaism that have long since been debunked, disproven and suffer from a complete lack of evidence. Lausten, I detailed some of the process I have been using do to the fact that you were wanting to know. You stated that you thought I might be throwing stuff together as I went. I went the extra mile for you, so you could see how I go about things. And instead of a thank you, I just get another put down from you. Same thing if I start naming sources, it is just something else to take away from the point being stated.
"First of all, we must internalize the 'flatulation' of the matter by transmitting the effervescence of the 'Indianisian' proximity in order to further segregate the crux of my venereal infection. Now, if I may retain my liquids here for one moment. I'd like to continue the 'redundance' of my quote, unquote 'intestinal tract', you see because to preclude on the issue of world domination would only circumvent - excuse me, circumcise the revelation that reflects the 'Afro-disiatic' symptoms which now perpetrates the Jheri Curis activation. Allow me to expose my colon once again. The ramification inflicted on the incision placed within the Fallopian cavities serves to be holistic taken from the Latin word 'jalapeno'." -- Oswald Bates, In Living Color season 1 ep 3
Everything according to Mike. He thinks all of us have gotten it all wrong. That gods were people that we wrote stories about.That's what he's always blathering on about? Okay then. I'm still trying to figure out what he thinks Hinduism has to do with Judaism. Or "Juda religion" as he calls it. This guy really needs to look into the words 'proofreading', 'coherency', and 'organization'. Hinduism is vast. Veda is a root religion and connected to Hinduism. Heavens for example comes from Veda. Veda concepts were understood by all the people at the time and a building block for most religions of the time. Juda religion was from the Children of Abraham religion and used in the Kingdom of Juda. And almost the same as the religion use in the Kingdom of Israel. After the OT was establish the Jewish religion evolved from the Juda. As far as ‘proofreading’, ‘coherency’, and ‘organization’, you are 100% correct. I was taught on a phonic alphabet and it caused me not to be able to spell or see the words as they are in this alphabet. Added to not having basic schooling, communication is a major task for me. You on the other hand are one of the best I have seen at wordsmithing ideas. So if you can find the time, please feel free to help me get the thoughts written down. I would really appreciate the help. Take any post and rephrase it in your own words. That would be a great help.
You on the other hand are one of the best I have seen at wordsmithing ideas. So if you can find the time, please feel free to help me get the thoughts written down. I would really appreciate the help. Take any post and rephrase it in your own words. That would be a great help.I'm not sure if you meant me or not. I just went through a 5 day process at my work where we took a permitting process that is only understood by a few people and documented it and made it understandable for an outside vendor to help us manage it. I've been using similar techniques to try to understand you. When we ask our clerical people what they do in response to X, they say well, we do this, unless situation Y, then we do this, and if it's also ... That's where you interrupt them and ask them to take it a step at a time. When I ask you about a step, you add more, you redefine words in ways contradictory to how you've defined them before. You tell me I'm being difficult. You want to build timelines, but you refuse to put dates to events. You say things existed in pre-written history but don't say how you know. You say "everyone knew this at the time", well, until very recently, "everyone" (as in almost all people) couldn't read. "Everyone" was concerned with basic survival and had very little time for studying the Vedas, if they had ever heard of them at all. That's just one example of a made up fact. No one can help you organize made up facts.
Mike Yohe, Heavens for example comes from Veda. Veda concepts were understood by all the people at the time and a building block for most religions of the time.OK, I'll have a stab at one definitive (highlighted) statement you made, which IMO, is an argument from authority as well as from ignorance (no ad hominem intended). Today, do you understand the concept of Heaven, which was understood by all 3000 years ago? If you do undertstand it, please describe the concept of Heaven. Today the concept of heaven is defined as:
Heav·en. NOUN 1.a place regarded in various religions as the abode of God (or the gods) and the angels, and of the good after death, often traditionally depicted as being above the sky.How can anything which is logically incomprehensible be understood by anyone except as an unproven belief? IMO, a more accurate statement would be "was believed by (most) all", rather than "was understood by all".
Understanding as a model Gregory Chaitin, a noted computer scientist, propounds a view that comprehension is a kind of data compression.[2] In his essay "The Limits of Reason", he argues that understanding something means being able to figure out a simple set of rules that explains it. For example, we understand why day and night exist because we have a simple model—the rotation of the earth—that explains a tremendous amount of data—changes in brightness, temperature, and atmospheric composition of the earth. We have compressed a large amount of information by using a simple model that predicts it. Similarly, we understand the number 0.33333... by thinking of it as one-third. The first way of representing the number requires an infinite amount of memory; but the second way can produce all the data of the first representation, but uses much less information. Chaitin argues that comprehension is this ability to compress data.In the case of Heaven there is no data to compress into comprehension, let alone "understanding"
Write4U, they will never get it in a million years.
Lois
Write4U, they will never get it in a million years. LoisIt seems that even then they didn't get it.
Nasadiya Sukta (Hymn of non-Eternity): Who really knows? Who can here proclaim it? Whence, whence this creation sprang? Gods came later, after the creation of this universe. Who then knows whence it has arisen? Whether God's will created it, or whether He was mute; Only He who is its overseer in highest heaven knows, He only knows, or perhaps He does not know. —Rig Veda 10.129.6-7
You believe in the spirit world and you claim to have an open mind. How can we have a conversationWhat? I never said that I believed in "the spirit world"! That's simply what the word "God" means. In every context that I'm familiar with, "God" is a spirit, he created the universe, and his Holy Word is the ultimate authority from which there is no appeal. If you and Mike Yohe want to imagine that "God" means something else, that's fine, but words are the only tools we have in order to communicate ideas to one another. Unless you can justify your new definition, you're going to cause confusion. For example, when you originally said that God equals the brain, this is what I thought you meant: "Any random idea that pops into my brain is God. It is Ultimate Truth; no argument, no discussion. I am the Final Authority." That idea struck me as totally absurd, which is the reason I ignored this thread for a long time. I assumed that we had nothing to talk about. Now, if that's NOT what you meant, I'd like to give you the opportunity to explain what you did mean.
If you do undertstand it, please describe the concept of Heaven.Concept of Heaven. Keep in mind that I am no professional on these subjects, I do this research as a hobby. What I make of the data is that first there was red earth burials. And they are everywhere people were on earth including the America’s. If man was created from red earth, then it seemed that they were trying to return man to red earth. This brings up the reasoning that reincarnation was the reasoning behind the red earth burials. The center for reincarnation religion was in India. Their society, political and moral Cass system was built on reincarnation. As the reincarnation system evolved and expanded. It grew in the number of levels of social classes and then merged with the astrological advancement of the time. The burials had advanced passed the red earth to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the smoke that came from the burning of the person’s bones and carried the soul. At some point in pre-history time, the Holy Spirit was able to travel to the stars. And the stars they traveled to, were the planets of the solar system. The planets became known as heaven. The Holy Spirit waited in heaven until being reincarnated again. There were no god deities at this time, the people were known as the gods. The upper gods were the leaders and the lower gods were the workers. Egypt on the other hand, does not show the signs of evolving as much and incorporating new ideas. Coming along at a later time. The Pharaoh was resurrected, a form of reincarnation. Then the high priest got to go to heaven. Their heaven was an island in the Mediterranean Sea. The Pharaoh’s heaven was the sun, the sun became a god. Unlike India, the thinking of good and bad was different. Bad always followed you, as your shadow. Light represented the good. The Holy Spirit was also different. I bring this up because Christianity is mostly based upon the Egyptian ideas. Added. But is a mix of old India and newer Egyptian. The heavens were not the same in Egypt as India. That is why I think that the bible stayed away from describing any details of heaven. As it seems the people understood the many levels of heaven, the Egyptian religion dealt with the body where the India religion dealt with the spirit only. The resurrection of Jesus is confusing to people. It was a deity thing mainly for gods. Latter the Catholic's claim the righteous will be resurrected in the same bodies they had here on earth, in heaven.
You believe in the spirit world and you claim to have an open mind. How can we have a conversationWhat? I never said that I believed in "the spirit world"! That's simply what the word "God" means. In every context that I'm familiar with, "God" is a spirit, he created the universe, and his Holy Word is the ultimate authority from which there is no appeal. If you and Mike Yohe want to imagine that "God" means something else, that's fine, but words are the only tools we have in order to communicate ideas to one another. Unless you can justify your new definition, you're going to cause confusion. For example, when you originally said that God equals the brain, this is what I thought you meant: "Any random idea that pops into my brain is God. It is Ultimate Truth; no argument, no discussion. I am the Final Authority." That idea struck me as totally absurd, which is the reason I ignored this thread for a long time. I assumed that we had nothing to talk about. Now, if that's NOT what you meant, I'd like to give you the opportunity to explain what you did mean. Advocatus, There are so many levels and directions because of the amount of data and the length of time involved. Looking at key points. And you can’t ignore that Veda means “knowledge", and “Gnostic" means “knowledge". So when people of the past were talking about religions, they were literately saying the words “knowledge". To them religion was about “knowledge". When Paul and John hijacked Jesus’s Gnostic teachings, they moved “knowledge" to the Holy Ghost, and made Christianity about “belief" instead of knowledge. Then the church over the years set about destroying history and knowledge. They shut down the colleges and eliminated a lot of people with knowledge. So, the question to you. If you don’t believe in deities, then you might not believe in “belief" either. That just means you don’t believe in Catholic Christianity. And isn’t that sort of the same thinking as Thomas Jefferson was doing? He wanted to take the Catholic Christianity out of the bible and keep the book of knowledge alive by creating a bible without Catholic Christianity, but keeping Jesus’s Gnostic Christianity. Added, Then take the time period that the writings of the bible took place. Knowledge was a physical matter object, it had mass. Its physical properties were that it needed light or voice to be transferred. It was kept in heart in Egypt, in the brain in Mediterranean thinking. So my question to you is, why are we so off center for thinking god (knowledge) should be in the brain?
If you do undertstand it, please describe the concept of Heaven.Concept of Heaven. Keep in mind that I am no professional on these subjects, I do this research as a hobby. What I make of the data is that first there was red earth burials. And they are everywhere people were on earth including the America’s. If man was created from red earth, then it seemed that they were trying to return man to red earth. This brings up the reasoning that reincarnation was the reasoning behind the red earth burials. The center for reincarnation religion was in India. Their society, political and moral Cass system was built on reincarnation. As the reincarnation system evolved and expanded. It grew in the number of levels of social classes and then merged with the astrological advancement of the time. The burials had advanced passed the red earth to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was the smoke that came from the burning of the person’s bones and carried the soul. At some point in pre-history time, the Holy Spirit was able to travel to the stars. And the stars they traveled to, were the planets of the solar system. The planets became known as heaven. The Holy Spirit waited in heaven until being reincarnated again. There were no god deities at this time, the people were known as the gods. The upper gods were the leaders and the lower gods were the workers. Egypt on the other hand, does not show the signs of evolving as much and incorporating new ideas. Coming along at a later time. The Pharaoh was resurrected, a form of reincarnation. Then the high priest got to go to heaven. Their heaven was an island in the Mediterranean Sea. The Pharaoh’s heaven was the sun, the sun became a god. Unlike India, the thinking of good and bad was different. Bad always followed you, as your shadow. Light represented the good. The Holy Spirit was also different. I bring this up because Christianity is mostly based upon the Egyptian ideas. Added. But is a mix of old India and newer Egyptian. The heavens were not the same in Egypt as India. That is why I think that the bible stayed away from describing any details of heaven. As it seems the people understood the many levels of heaven, the Egyptian religion dealt with the body where the India religion dealt with the spirit only. The resurrection of Jesus is confusing to people. It was a deity thing mainly for gods. Latter the Catholic's claim the righteous will be resurrected in the same bodies they had here on earth, in heaven. Thanks for taking the time to explain your views, but while informative, it did not answer my questtion. I do not need to know the history of various religions practices and beliefs, . The question was what your concept of Heaven is. I was asking about the demographics of Heaven itself. Where is it? How many souls can it contain? How many gods live there? Can we travel there without needing to die first and release our souls to travel and enter heaven? Does heaven host the souls of animals? Is there any physical aspect to Heaven? Is it a "field", a "singularity", is it mathematical? When in heaven, is God accessible to souls? Is there communication of some sort? Those are the answers I am looking for. I want your interpretation and expectation of when you go to Heaven (somewhere up there) and i am sure, that if there is a heaven, you will go there, instead of "burning in hell forever" (somewhere down there)?
If you do undertstand it, please describe the concept of Heaven.Concept of Heaven.. Thanks for taking the time to explain your views, but while informative, it did not answer my questtion. I do not need to know the history of various religions practices and beliefs, . The question was what your concept of Heaven is. I was asking about the demographics of Heaven itself. Where is it? How many souls can it contain? How many gods live there? Can we travel there without needing to die first and release our souls to travel and enter heaven? Does heaven host the souls of animals? Is there any physical aspect to Heaven? Is it a "field", a "singularity", is it mathematical? When in heaven, is God accessible to souls? Is there communication of some sort? Those are the answers I am looking for. I want your interpretation and expectation of when you go to Heaven (somewhere up there) and i am sure, that if there is a heaven, you will go there, instead of "burning in hell forever" (somewhere down there)? The belief in heavens goes in the box with ether winds, knowledge traveling by sunlight and deity gods. It just goes to prove you can fool all the people all the time.
If you do undertstand it, please describe the concept of Heaven.Concept of Heaven.. Thanks for taking the time to explain your views, but while informative, it did not answer my questtion. I want your interpretation and expectation of when you go to Heaven (somewhere up there) and i am sure, that if there is a heaven, you will go there, instead of "burning in hell forever" (somewhere down there)? The belief in heavens goes in the box with ether winds, knowledge traveling by sunlight and deity gods. It just goes to prove you can fool all the people all the time. That sounds like a statement an atheist might make.
Looking at key points. And you can’t ignore that Veda means “knowledge", and “Gnostic" means “knowledge". So when people of the past were talking about religions, they were literately saying the words “knowledge". To them religion was about “knowledge". When Paul and John hijacked Jesus’s Gnostic teachings, they moved “knowledge" to the Holy Ghost, and made Christianity about “belief" instead of knowledge. Then the church over the years set about destroying history and knowledge. They shut down the colleges and eliminated a lot of people with knowledge. So, the question to you. If you don’t believe in deities, then you might not believe in “belief" either. That just means you don’t believe in Catholic Christianity. And isn’t that sort of the same thinking as Thomas Jefferson was doing? He wanted to take the Catholic Christianity out of the bible and keep the book of knowledge alive by creating a bible without Catholic Christianity, but keeping Jesus’s Gnostic Christianity.What are you talking about? Are you talking about the same Catholic Church which FOUNDED all those colleges, universities and hospitals? The same Catholic Church that operates observatories? One of us is confused.
Added, Then take the time period that the writings of the bible took place. Knowledge was a physical matter object, it had mass. Its physical properties were that it needed light or voice to be transferred. It was kept in heart in Egypt, in the brain in Mediterranean thinking. So my question to you is, why are we so off center for thinking god (knowledge) should be in the brain?I think you're off center in thinking that "god" is the same thing as "knowledge".
Looking at key points. And you can’t ignore that Veda means “knowledge", and “Gnostic" means “knowledge"...... .What are you talking about? Are you talking about the same Catholic Church which FOUNDED all those colleges, universities and hospitals? The same Catholic Church that operates observatories? One of us is confused. The Catholic Church started founding colleges because it had to send the priests to Islam countries to be educated because the church had shut down all the universities in lands it controlled. There is a part of history called the Dark Ages. And Jefferson may have been afraid that the church might send the new country into another Dark Age. The department of Inquisition is said to still be operating under a different name in the church today. That said, I think colleges and hospitals are good things and help mankind.
Added, Then take the time period that the writings of the bible took place. Knowledge was a physical matter object, it had mass. Its physical properties were that it needed light or voice to be transferred. It was kept in heart in Egypt, in the brain in Mediterranean thinking. So my question to you is, why are we so off center for thinking god (knowledge) should be in the brain?
I think you're off center in thinking that "god" is the same thing as "knowledge".Think of it as money. You put a value on a $100 dollar bill. And you think it has value. But it is only a small piece of paper that has no value. It represents value only. A gold coin is money with value, but the paper only is a representation of value. But did god represent knowledge to the people is the question? In Egypt, god was the gold coin knowledge. In other areas it was a little gold and a little paper. Jesus’s job was to change how the people saw knowledge. Remember knowledge traveled to you by light. So the word light was also related to knowledge. "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." Do you think Jesus was saying he was sunlight? Or that he was knowledge? I am the law, and the light. Christ shall give thee light. I am the light, and the life, and the truth. Truth is light, and whatsoever is light. The light and the Redeemer of the world. Jesus wanted to remove Ra and replace religion with Gnostic thinking. Gnostic means “knowledge". What Jesus was doing, was also going on in many other places in the Empire with other gods. There were more gods than the Roman Empire thought were needed. And they were consolidating and removing gods at the time. What was the value the people back then placed on knowledge? In California we spend 50% of our tax money on education (knowledge), so I would say we place a big value on knowledge. And ask yourself why is the church even involved in colleges? What the hell does colleges that have to do with religion anyway? It has always been part of religion.
Catholics got involved in colleges because for a few centuries, they owned everything. They controlled the countryside while Rome collapsed, so the political leaders (Kings) had to deal with them as they regained territory. They literally burned and erased much of the greek knowledge and claimed that what you really need to know is the Bible.
I know you won’t answer this one Mike, but I’ll put it out there for others who get into endless conversations with people like you. Why did the Gnostics fail? Why did the corporate religion of Augustine get the power? Why didn’t all those little house churches who were allowing women at the table and actually caring for their neighbor become the dominant power of the 5th century?
The question of what Jesus wanted to do pales in the light of those answers. There were always many movements related to Jesus. You highlight a few of them and say those ARE Jesus, that they ARE God. They aren’t. First because there is no god, and second because they failed. There are no winners here either. Catholicism did well for a while, but it was often corrupt and hated, and compared to Baghdad and Andulasia in the 9th to 12th centuries, it was a dirty backwater of the world.
The OP question asks “if there is a god”
Allow me to counter with the question, “is there a need for a God (as commonly defined)?”
Kallisto Ware says God is the cause of wonder. You could say either or both science and religion began when people looked up at the night sky and wondered. Today we know why the sun moves across the sky, how the various tribes of humans came to be, we have some idea of why we care about each other, and some idea of the mechanisms in our bodies that make it all happen. Those are amazing things to be aware of. No, we don’t need supernatural explanations, or even mythologized heroes.
Kallisto Ware says God is the cause of wonder. You could say either or both science and religion began when people looked up at the night sky and wondered. Today we know why the sun moves across the sky, how the various tribes of humans came to be, we have some idea of why we care about each other, and some idea of the mechanisms in our bodies that make it all happen. Those are amazing things to be aware of. No, we don't need supernatural explanations, or even mythologized heroes.I wholly agree. But does the awe and wonder diminish by knowing it is all mathematical? The universe is an astounding phenomenon, regardless of how we look at it. But, IMO, the concept of Heaven (the realm of Gods) is founded on the principle of "movement (desire) in the direction of greatest satisfaction.' Heaven promises such ultimate satisfaction, that is why religion is so seductive to the average person. We seek "purpose" for our existence. Oddly, all life on earth seems to get by very well without a purpose, other than the immediate need for food (energy), or the seasonal need to mate (procreate). Success in both areas is sufficient for the continued existence of any species. So what is the purpose for their existence? The concept that the universe was created for man alone is the height of hubris and leads to the assumed right to wanton killing of "trophy animals", instead of collecting trophies of art such as a painting by Rembrandt, or Van Gogh, or Degas.
Lausten - 21 October 2015 08:20 PM Kallisto Ware says God is the cause of wonder. You could say either or both science and religion began when people looked up at the night sky and wondered.I have a problem with the (bolded) turn of phrase. I would have preferred to see "wonder is the casuse of God" I think I can make a case that the belief that powerful events were caused by "superior beings" (Gods) came long before we actually started to investigate the real causes of natural pnenomena. I believe that to the early intelligent hominids the first "wonderful" events (wind, rain, fires) must have been attributed to "unseen magical and powerful beings" which displayed their pleasure through bestowing warmth, comfort or displeasure by bestowing punishment through fires, storms, monsoon rains. I think this can be historically confirmed that the earliest "gods" can be found to represent and are associated with natural events. The god Thor is a perfect example. Even a thousand years ago, it was thought that common diseases were demonic spirits inhabiting a body, which could be exorcised by prayer. I am not implying that humans then were not as intelligent and insightful as any scientist today. They just had no experience with the "unseen" and always worked from a subjective "spiritual" viewpoint. That was the accepted worldview of that time and the rise of authoritative religions. Then came a few "free thinkers, such as Hypatia, Gallileo, Newton, etc, which recognized the mathematical patterns and functions and entered the world of objective physical science, which brought it in conflict with subjective spirituality. Subjective Spiritual philosophy came long before objective Physical science, IMO.