Eliminating free expression is the most important method a police state can use to control the population. Ideas are far more powerful and dangerous to totalitarian rule than any police action. Expression is the seed that produces action against the state. I think you misunderstand what a police state actually is. It is not simply increased powers for the police, it also needs to control thought to some degree to be effective. You can not control thought "and" allow free speech. Have you read 1984 by Orwell?There are all kinds of police states. I maintain that the US is at least heading in that direction. We may be experiencing only the tip of the iceberg. Stay tuned. A country seldom becomes a full blown police state in one fell swoop. It can be done in tiny increments over a substantial period of time. And if the government can convince enough people (dupes) that it is all being done to keep us safe so opposition is kept at bay, they have a big jackboot in the door. Lois
Eliminating free expression is the most important method a police state can use to control the population. Ideas are far more powerful and dangerous to totalitarian rule than any police action. Expression is the seed that produces action against the state. I think you misunderstand what a police state actually is. It is not simply increased powers for the police, it also needs to control thought to some degree to be effective. You can not control thought "and" allow free speech. Have you read 1984 by Orwell?This is the real world not fiction. In the real world millions of Americans still think that Iraq was behind 911 and that global warming is a myth largely because they are told to think that way by an incredibly well funded system of think tanks and lobby groups. And at the other end is the use of state resources including the intelligence services to suppress any action that might negatively impact the same people who spent so much to control the message. I guess if your agenda is to stop any meaningful action on financial reform, unilateral military action or global warming then it's important to to make sure environment groups, war protesters and things like Occupy Wall Street are keep to a minimum. https://www.aclu.org/maps/spying-first-amendment-activity-state-state
Unfortunately, it appears that these old tendencies have once again come to the fore. Law enforcement agencies across America continue to monitor and harass groups and individuals for doing little more than peacefully exercising their First Amendment rights. A thorough search and review of news accounts by the ACLU reveals that these law enforcement behaviors have taken place in at least 36 states plus the District of Columbia in recent years. Americans have been put under surveillance or harassed by the police just for deciding to organize, march, protest, espouse unusual viewpoints, and engage in normal, innocuous behaviors such as writing notes or taking photographs in public.What are you claiming, Americans are being protected from themselves, if so the state is doing a very poor job.
There are all kinds of police states. I maintain that the US is at least heading in that direction. We may be experiencing only the tip of the iceberg. Stay tuned. A country seldom becomes a full blown police state in one fell swoop. It can be done in tiny increments over a substantial period of time. And if the government can convince enough people (dupes) that it is all being done to keep us safe so opposition is kept at bay, they have a big jackboot in the door. LoisHere in Canada it's being done with a smile and promises that all is fine, but after just 8 years of a far right government I don't even recognize this country any more.
There are all kinds of police states. I maintain that the US is at least heading in that direction. We may be experiencing only the tip of the iceberg. Stay tuned. A country seldom becomes a full blown police state in one fell swoop. It can be done in tiny increments over a substantial period of time. And if the government can convince enough people (dupes) that it is all being done to keep us safe so opposition is kept at bay, they have a big jackboot in the door. LoisHere in Canada it's being done with a smile and promises that all is fine, but after just 8 years of a far right government I don't even recognize this country any more. Yes, I understand how you feel. Lois
Hello everyone! ... Was "out" for a while... now I'm back ;) U.S. a police state? Sorry, I don't agree in the least. East Germany was a police state, the Soviet Union was a police state, North Korea is a police state, etc. The U.S.??? No. I don't agree with the Patriot Act and all that "war on terror" nonsense, but it's a far cry from an actual police state. This is a little paranoid I think. If you ever lived in a police state you know the difference. Good thing you all guard against that, but calling the U.S. what it might be one day only has this shit roll around faster. For now, we're pretty good. Let's keep it that way. Peace. MichelleI'm sure things are fine for people who don't act out in any manner or who attempt to speak truth to power, or who aren't just in the wrong place at the wrong time, but isn't that the whole point. Free speech doesn't mean very much if people are afraid to use it. And if even neglecting to make a full stop at an intersection can get you held against your will and sodomized by police for 14 hours as happened to David Eckert, then how free are we really. It's little better in Canada. There are many videos available online detailing just how hostile and brutal police have become in dealing with the public, which is a hallmark of a state that sees its citizens as the enemy. Warning graphic content. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9oHbDr0QtQ Here a Windsor Ontario police detective beats a blind doctor after which his department attempted to cover it up. This kind of thing is becoming all too common. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ylwPtNFDW0 Edmonton police brutality. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/former-edmonton-cop-derek-huff-blows-whistle-on-brutality-corruption-1.1871353
A former cop with an exemplary record is going public about what he calls corruption in Edmonton police ranks, after he tried internally to expose what he believes is organized brutality, but got no results. "I stood up for what's right, and I just got run out of the police service," said Derek Huff, 37. “I still can’t even really believe it." Huff is a 10-year-veteran who resigned in February, three years after he said he and his partner watched — stunned — as three plainclothes officers viciously beat a handcuffed man while he was down. “They basically had their knees on his back and were just punching and kicking him just as hard as they could …six fists just pummelling this guy … I could hear him screaming," said Huff.This is what happened after Edmonton police witnessed two guy miss a trash can one was trying to throw a piece of pizza into. More violent content. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZDgD8HLCbE I think people who think they're safe from police either in Canada or the US are naive. Hey Fuzzy, I don't doubt police brutality and / or their prejudice towards certain individuals in the least, but / and this are exceptions that should be eradicated. On the other hand, there's many well-meaning cops and people in the justice system who genuinely try to help the "offenders". Also, since every idiot can carry a gun thanks to these NRA lunatics being a cop can mean getting shot dead any freakin' day. Not a job I want. The fact that this thread exists and nobody here is getting arrested for it also speaks against a police state. I know, it's a fine line, and I'm not too fond of the government interfering with things that are none of their business either, but still, one can go overboard. Just my fifty cents... Michelle
Fuzzy, you are steeped in multiple levels of fiction. You dismiss anyone or anything that you perceive to be in conflict with your views. You are a textbook example of confirmation bias.
I won’t trouble you any further.
Fuzzy, you are steeped in multiple levels of fiction. You dismiss anyone or anything that you perceive to be in conflict with your views. You are a textbook example of confirmation bias. I won't trouble you any further.True right, as soon as someone resorts to ad hominem attacks you know they're pretty well done discussing an issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.[2] Fallacious Ad hominem reasoning is normally categorized as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely as a genetic fallacy,[6] a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.[7] Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact.Basically what it means is, because you can't challenge the facts you seek to remove the presenter. Show me one instance where what I'm presenting isn't factual or have serious implications for the rights of citizens in the US and possibly even their future. And if you can't you really have no business obstructing such an important issue, just as the state has lost any claim to real authority when it violates basics principles behind the social contract.
Hey Fuzzy, I don't doubt police brutality and / or their prejudice towards certain individuals in the least, but / and this are exceptions that should be eradicated. On the other hand, there's many well-meaning cops and people in the justice system who genuinely try to help the "offenders".They're still part of a system that has the highest incarceration rate in the world and has a clear bias towards those with the bucks. If you're a poor heir to a multi-million dollar fortune, they worry about how well you do in jail when you're found guilty of raping children. Tell me there's any real justice in this kind of system. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2593119/Revealed-Multimillionaire-du-Pont-family-heir-spared-jail-raping-three-year-old-daughter-judge-decided-not-fair-bars.html
Shocking details have emerged of how a multimillionaire heir to the du Pont chemical business was convicted of raping his three-year-old daughter but escaped serving prison time after a Delaware Superior Court judge ruled he would ‘not fare well’. Robert H. Richards IV was charged with fourth-degree rape in 2009 after he admitted that he had raped his daughter almost a decade ago. News of the shocking leniency shown to Richards, 46, only emerged on Tuesday in the details of a lawsuit filed against him by his ex-wife Tracy.Meanwhile there are more and more poor people being sentenced to life in prison for minor theft. http://rt.com/usa/life-prison-without-parole-694/
Over 3,200 people in the United States are serving life sentences without parole for non-violent and often petty offenses – and taxpayers are paying billions to keep them locked up, according to a new report. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) report, titled ‘A Living Death,’ relays the stories of thousands of people impacted by the United States’ “late-twentieth-century obsession with mass incarceration and extreme, inhumane penalties" which leaves them likely to die behind bars even though they are far from being serious or violent offenders.
Also, since every idiot can carry a gun thanks to these NRA lunatics being a cop can mean getting shot dead any freakin' day. Not a job I want.And they don't make it any easier for themselves by creating as antagonistic climate as possible. If you knew the police would as soon break your skull or shoot you as look at you, how secure would you feel.
The fact that this thread exists and nobody here is getting arrested for it also speaks against a police state.It's one voice is a sea of information, how long do you think it would last if this site seriously challenged the status quo, hundreds of millions of dollars have been invested to keep things the same on the fossil fuel issue alone.
I know, it's a fine line, and I'm not too fond of the government interfering with things that are none of their business either, but still, one can go overboard.I'm pretty sure trying to collect and analyze virtually all the information being passed in the world is going overboard, but that's exactly what the NSA is doing right now. Just read the article I posted about the new $2 billion NSA facility just built in Utah. They have to invent a new mathematical term to describe the amount of information that will be stored and analyzed there. By the time it becomes completely apparent you're living in a true police state it's too late to do anything about it, just ask the Germans, Italians and Spaniards who found themselves suddenly living in a world where everything was decided for them. The trains may have run on time, but so did the executions.
I’ll throw in the towel together with Handydan. No need to spend time discussing things with people who already know the answers to their own questions.
Not sure where you’re at, but you don’t seem to have much experience with cops or criminals. You’ll be lucky to see one of those uniformed dudes if you end up in the wrong place one day.
By the way, I am German and grew up there. Know the West, know the former East. No, the U.S. is nothing like it, absolutely nothing.
Peace.
Michelle
On a more “police state affirming” note though… yeah, indeed we need to guard against things. Niemoeller’s quote hangs fat in my doorway. What I mean is, just don’t take it overboard. Once a legitimate concern is taken into the absurd and paranoid you’re beginning to fulfill your own prophecies. Baader-Meinhof is an example.
Hello everyone! ... Was "out" for a while... now I'm back ;) U.S. a police state? Sorry, I don't agree in the least. East Germany was a police state, the Soviet Union was a police state, North Korea is a police state, etc. The U.S.??? No. I don't agree with the Patriot Act and all that "war on terror" nonsense, but it's a far cry from an actual police state. This is a little paranoid I think. If you ever lived in a police state you know the difference. Good thing you all guard against that, but calling the U.S. what it might be one day only has this shit roll around faster. For now, we're pretty good. Let's keep it that way. Peace. MichelleI'm sure things are fine for people who don't act out in any manner or who attempt to speak truth to power, or who aren't just in the wrong place at the wrong time, but isn't that the whole point. Free speech doesn't mean very much if people are afraid to use it. And if even neglecting to make a full stop at an intersection can get you held against your will and sodomized by police for 14 hours as happened to David Eckert, then how free are we really. It's little better in Canada. There are many videos available online detailing just how hostile and brutal police have become in dealing with the public, which is a hallmark of a state that sees its citizens as the enemy. Warning graphic content. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9oHbDr0QtQ Here a Windsor Ontario police detective beats a blind doctor after which his department attempted to cover it up. This kind of thing is becoming all too common. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ylwPtNFDW0 Edmonton police brutality. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/former-edmonton-cop-derek-huff-blows-whistle-on-brutality-corruption-1.1871353
A former cop with an exemplary record is going public about what he calls corruption in Edmonton police ranks, after he tried internally to expose what he believes is organized brutality, but got no results. "I stood up for what's right, and I just got run out of the police service," said Derek Huff, 37. “I still can’t even really believe it." Huff is a 10-year-veteran who resigned in February, three years after he said he and his partner watched — stunned — as three plainclothes officers viciously beat a handcuffed man while he was down. “They basically had their knees on his back and were just punching and kicking him just as hard as they could …six fists just pummelling this guy … I could hear him screaming," said Huff.This is what happened after Edmonton police witnessed two guy miss a trash can one was trying to throw a piece of pizza into. More violent content. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZDgD8HLCbE I think people who think they're safe from police either in Canada or the US are naive. Hey Fuzzy, I don't doubt police brutality and / or their prejudice towards certain individuals in the least, but / and this are exceptions that should be eradicated. On the other hand, there's many well-meaning cops and people in the justice system who genuinely try to help the "offenders". Also, since every idiot can carry a gun thanks to these NRA lunatics being a cop can mean getting shot dead any freakin' day. Not a job I want. The fact that this thread exists and nobody here is getting arrested for it also speaks against a police state. I know, it's a fine line, and I'm not too fond of the government interfering with things that are none of their business either, but still, one can go overboard. Just my fifty cents... Michelle I agree that being a cop in the US is one of the hardest jobs in the world, especially in cities. The proliferation of guns makes it even harder and more dangerous. Cops are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think most cops are good and are trying to do a very difficult, stressful job right. It's just that cops are so easily manipulated by the government, which can turn them into the tools of a police state. I don't think we're there yet, despie some of the things I've said here, but I think the US may be in danger of becoming one. The job of policing is really hard and cops under tremendous pressure by not only the government that employs them, but the media, the public and heavily armed criminals, protected by the NRA, who would as soon shoot them as look at them, and they're ripe for corruption. It's not a job I'd want any of my loved ones doing. Lois
I think there is a pretty clear symptom of living in a police state: when you must be afraid for the state when you openly say your ideas.
I think there were some periods where the USA was close to that (McCarthy, Bush Jr), but until now it recovered again and again.
Having a powerful NSA is of course increasing this danger, because you cannot even be sure anymore when you use tools to tell your opinions that are supposed to be private.
“Wehret den Anfängen!” (for those who know their European history…)
I think there is a pretty clear symptom of living in a police state: when you must be afraid for the state when you openly say your ideas. I think there were some periods where the USA was close to that (McCarthy, Bush Jr), but until now it recovered again and again. Having a powerful NSA is of course increasing this danger, because you cannot even be sure anymore when you use tools to tell your opinions that are supposed to be private. "Wehret den Anfängen!" (for those who know their European history...)Once they can track our every movement and utterance and record it, what's to stop them from using it to make us afraid to speak up? If they can break the law regarding gathering evidence, they can break it regarding using it. Lois
I'll throw in the towel together with Handydan. No need to spend time discussing things with people who already know the answers to their own questions. Not sure where you're at, but you don't seem to have much experience with cops or criminals. You'll be lucky to see one of those uniformed dudes if you end up in the wrong place one day. By the way, I am German and grew up there. Know the West, know the former East. No, the U.S. is nothing like it, absolutely nothing. Peace. MichelleActually reading my posts might give you a hint of where I'm from, try the article on police brutality in Edmonton and the video I posted. I've also lived in a high crime area here, it's disturbing when it's hard to tell the police from the criminals, once again try reading what I've posted before making assumptions. I grew up in both Canada and the US and there has been a great deal of change in recent years and not for the better. As someone coming from Germany I'd think you'd understand the danger in being afraid of speaking truth to power until it's too late to do anything about it.
On a more "police state affirming" note though... yeah, indeed we need to guard against things. Niemoeller's quote hangs fat in my doorway. What I mean is, just don't take it overboard. Once a legitimate concern is taken into the absurd and paranoid you're beginning to fulfill your own prophecies. Baader-Meinhof is an example.And from my side, ad hominem attacks really have no place in a serious discussion like this, if you're unable to challenge the facts I'm posting I think the only decent action is to stop posting instead of trying to shame the person you don't agree with. Show me where what I'm posting is inaccurate in concrete terms, trying to equate me with a violent terrorist group because I'm very concerned about human rights in what is supposed to be an open society just makes you look ridiculous in my opinion. You're displaying the very behaviour you're trying to attribute to me.
I agree that being a cop in the US is one of the hardest jobs in the world, especially in cities. The proliferation of guns makes it even harder and more dangerous. Cops are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think most cops are good and are trying to do a very difficult, stressful job right. It's just that cops are so easily manipulated by the government, which can turn them into the tools of a police state. I don't think we're there yet, despie some of the things I've said here, but I think the US may be in danger of becoming one. The job of policing is really hard and cops under tremendous pressure by not only the government that employs them, but the media, the public and heavily armed criminals, protected by the NRA, who would as soon shoot them as look at them, and they're ripe for corruption. It's not a job I'd want any of my loved ones doing. LoisI've got members of my extended family in the RCMP, I know for a fact that it's a hard job, but that's not really the issue I'm addressing here. It's more about the systemic dehumanizing of people in a state that more and more is being run by and for a tiny minority of the population. It used to seem much clearer what "To protect and serve" actually meant I think. And that applies to all levels of government and civil service including the military and police.
Hi Fuzzy,
Like your answer. Point taken.
Police can be acting like criminals, no doubt about it, and American police is surely more brutal than the ones in Germany right now. But then again, Germans don’t generally carry firearms so there’s no fear of getting killed as a cop.
I can be pretty political and I’m pretty left, so it might seem that I should agree with this “fascist takeover" and fear of the government, but I really don’t. To me it resembles a conspiracy theory more than an actual threat. (My point on this whole “who’s to fear thing" has always been the same: the actual fascist underground who is not in control now but fed by neo-conservatives to one day rise again. Mainly, however, in Europe. The U.S. will notice and retreat from its right wing stances once the fascists over there show their faces again.)
All the points you list are valid, but I think your conclusions are wrong.
What’s happening is an abuse of power, not government sanctioned abuse. Granted, it could be interpreted as such but the law says different. Once the law explicitly calls for such abuses, then you’re having a police state.
I support the ACLU as well as Amnesty International, and both of them point out all these abuses and call for action, but again, it’s not about a police state. Guantanamo Bay is a disgrace, locking people up for smoking pot is ridiculous, politicians ordering torture should be prosecuted, and police / FBI / NSA etc. are overstepping their boundaries. Germany’s Merkel was pretty pissed off at American spy tactics on German people. I totally agree with all of that, but presenting the U.S. as a police state is still not valid, just as equating Bush with Hitler is laughable. (I’m not saying you did that.)
The idea that the U.S. is a police state takes two things and warps them. On the one hand it’s the right wing hate mongers who supposedly built and control this police state while it’s their counterpart “socialists" who are the only ones into “big government". Which ones are the police statists? Or is there a big invisible conspiracy behind it all?
Usually it’s the NRA pounding into people’s heads that the government wants to take over, so we all need more weapons to protect ourselves. But it’s not the leftists in the government who come up with human rights violations. It doesn’t make sense, at least not to me. If there’s an error in my thinking here and you can clear that up I’d appreciate it.
Peace.
Michelle
Here’s just one article from the ACLU site about what’s going on already in Washington, a state which my family has resided in for more than a century and where I also resided.
http://www.theolympian.com/2010/08/04/1326232/documents-reveal-surveillance.html
The American Civil Liberties Union of Washington on Wednesday published a raft of public documents related to statewide government surveillance of local political activity to its website. The ACLU states that the documents "reveal a disturbing abuse and misuse of government resources here in Washington state." The documents describe surveillance activities from all over the state, including activities of Olympia-area people and groups. The documents were published as part of an ongoing research project by the ACLU. We are working to ensure that government collects information about political and religious activities only with reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct, Randy Tyler, a legal fellow at the ACLU of Washington, said Wednesday. * One of the ACLUs documents is a March 15, 2007 e-mail in which an Evergreen State College faculty member has apparently forwarded to the Washington State Patrol a students message detailing information about an upcoming anti-war protest scheduled at the Port of Tacoma. * Another is a March, 29, 2010 bulletin originating from Joint Base Lewis-McChords Fusion Center, warning the Naperville, Illinois police department of public records requests by a local activist group. The photo accompanying Joint-Base Lewis McChord Fusion Centers warning to the Naperville Police Department is a screen shot of the local Olympia website olyblog.net. The text accompanying JBLMs notification to Naperville police stated that open records laws are important to effective government, but added: It should be noted however, that while information requests can be used to stay informed of government activity and actively participate in the democratic process, they can also be used to obtain information with the intent of disrupting government functions and circumventing law enforcement operations.That's just one instance of the 17 that is listed of 1st Amendment rights being ignored by state authorities in Washington, there are 36 other states listed. This is already occurring, I think it's asinine to talk about a potential abuse of power in an environment where there already is extensive use of state resources to compel Americans to follow certain policies.
The American I respect and love above all others died in a field in France in 1944 killed by a Nazi bullet, he was also part of my family who’s time in America stretches back to before the country even existed. It was a great source of pride for me growing up to be often told how much I looked and acted like him.
I find it more than a little insulting that someone from the nation that he had to die defending us from is even indirectly comparing me to a terrorist and attempting to inform me what freedom in America really stands for. I know what it means to me, I’m not interested in being told how I should think about it.
Just trying to inform someone of how they should think in America just reveals how little they understand what freedom actually means to Americans.
The American I respect and love above all others died in a field in France in 1944 killed by a Nazi bullet, he was also part of my family who's time in America stretches back to before the country even existed. It was a great source of pride for me growing up to be often told how much I looked and acted like him. I find it more than a little insulting that someone from the nation that he had to die defending us from is even indirectly comparing me to a terrorist and attempting to inform me what freedom in America really stands for. I know what it means to me, I'm not interested in being told how I should think about it. Just trying to inform someone of how they should think in America just reveals how little they understand what freedom actually means to Americans.Fuzzy, I've lived in the U.S. for less than two decades, and I don't presume to understand the American mind, although I'm much less German than I used to be, which I notice when I visit there. My apologies to bring up the RAF. That might have been uncalled for. You might be right, I'll shut up. Michelle