Some of the gun lobby’s strongest allies are breaking with the National Rifle Association to support proposals that would expand background checks for private firearm sales.
Rep. Mike Thompson (D-Calif.), a hunter and Vietnam veteran leading a gun task force in the House, said that every dealer he talks to lately expresses support for more background checks. He says the NRA no longer represents the views of most gun owners.
But, as usual, the NRA is rambling out its usual "the Gubment will steal yo guns" paranoia. Anybody else feel like the NRA's become a bizarre caricature of itself?
But, as usual, the NRA is rambling out its usual “the Gubment will steal yo guns" paranoia. Anybody else feel like the NRA’s become a bizarre caricature of itself?
The NRA has strayed waaaaaay far from it's original intent as an organization founded to promote marksmanship and gun safety. It was created by Civil War vets, Ambrose Burnside of Antietam fame was the first prez. it wasn't until 1934 that they became active in politics and after World War II the seeds of paranoia began to seep in. I think more than anything they have the wrong spokesman in La Pierre. I really believe he buys into his own hype and I can't for the live of me see why the powers that be don't reign him in. There's nothing wrong with background checks, waiting periods and banning assault weapons, or as EOC has been pointing out in many posts, enforcing the laws already on the books as a start. No one's going to "peel your cold, dead fingers" from your shootin' arn NRA members. That's from the twisted mind of your "sainted" VP, you know the one who called the police "jack booted thugs".
Cap't Jack
>>But, as usual, the NRA is rambling out its usual “the Gubment will steal yo guns" paranoia. Anybody else feel like the NRA’s become a bizarre caricature of itself?<<
Since a number of the people, mostly on the left, have been openly proposing to do just that, even to the point of attempting to repeal the 2cnd Amendment (Metzenbaum is a notorious example and plenty have tried to follow in their footsteps) I can see why they would come to that conclusion.
That much said, I have no problem with background checks. The difficulty is that in order for it to work, there needs to be a comprehensive database of all criminal records and there isn't one. You would be surprised at how much is in dusty files and corrolated nowhere.
I would also point out that Adam Lanza attempted to buy guns using somebody else's ID and was both caught and turned down. He should have been arrested at once since what he attempted is a felony offence.
He wasn't, and this speaks to a spectacular failure on the part of the government. A government which persists on saying "Trust us" when it shows time and again that it's not worthy of that trust…and not just over guns either.
The NRA needs to realize, and quickly, that there will be a substantial move to weaken or strike the second amendment if they do not cease their intrangesence completely and agree to at least modest background checks.
I know of almost nobody who wants to “ban guns”, but anyone who even dares to suggest “registration” immediately finds themselves on the receiving end of a whole litany of slander, libel, and sometimes harrassment.
Such jackbooted response is only going to push more people against them, and against the guns they love.
Of course, we all know that the government would never break a treaty, right? See the guys in the feathered headresses? I think they would differ with you on that.
Ooops
Of course, we all just know that the government would NEVER pass or attempt to enforce ANY law which does away with such basic rights as due process and habeus corpus on the pretext of public safety, right?
What’s that now? Patriot Act? Started by Bush, continued under Obama!
Ooops.
Of course, we all know that the government would never start a war in two countries which did not attack us and don’t have the logistical ability to do so, right? What? Afghanistan? Iraq?
Ooops.
Of course, we all know that the government would never persue a melicious investigation based on partisan rhetoric or press hysteria and hooplah on any level. Right?
What’s that now? Kenneth Starr vs. Bill Clinton? Nifong vs The North Carolina University LaCross Team? Richard Jewell? McMartin Preschool? Dale Akiki???
Ohhh…Ooops.
And of course, we all know that government agents would never shoot the wrong target. Huh??? Randy Weaver’s wife at Ruby Ridge?
Ooops.
Of course, we all know that government agents would never go for a high drama operation which places children at risk when the person they want to arrest could be picked up without any fuss along the roadside as he commutes to and from town every day…huh? Waco? David Koresh???
Ooops.
We all know that the government would NEVER railroad innocent people into jail or onto death row. Huh? Project Innocence? Over 225 wrongfully convicted people cleared?
Ooops
And of course we all just know that the government is a model of morality, integrity, fidelity…
Ohhhh…manybe we don’t want to go there. Seems like there’s an awful lot of “oops” there. Way too much, and yet these are the same idiots who you want to entrust with a monopoly on deadly force.
Wanna call a given demographic paranoid?
Guess what, Da Gubmint gives them a damned good reason to be paranoid, and both sides are doing it.
Wake up people.
EOC, I am aghast! How could you possibly claim that the government is incompetent, backed up, and wasteful?! They would never do something like that. Or send cell phones to the dead. Never.
God bless America.
We must be especially vigilant now however, LaPierre (Wayne Lalabewary) just announced to CPAC that the Chinese and Mexican Governments want a copy of the list of all registered gun owners so that they can disarm us and take over. Wayne needs some serious medication and therapy. Their a comin’ ta get yer gun Murikans!
How much are the gun manufactors paying this nut job?
Why assume that they are? You're begging the question here.
Don't forget that the NRA and their polar opposites in outfits like Handgun Control Inc. are into political advocacy. Nobody needs to pay either to be paranoid any more then you need to pay advocacy groups of any stripe to be paranoid.
They all do that much free of charge.
EOC, I am aghast! How could you possibly claim that the government is incompetent, backed up, and wasteful?!
Just as a little aside DM, take a look at the current budget crisis which threatens to plunge this country into another recession if the "gubmint" doesn't get it's act together. On the one hand, both sides seem to be hell bent on orchestrating a crash right along party lines yet they're awarding billion dollar contracts left and right, floating proposals to fund ever more initiatives (Paid for with WHAT????) and oh yeah...Obama is climbing onto the "Iran is trying to obtain Nukes" bandwagon and is willing to use ALL means to stop them. (Paid for with WHAT????)
These are the same guys who we're being told should be trusted with a monopoly on deadly force.
Trusted?
The government?
I don't think so.
Of course, we all know that the government would never break a treaty, right? See the guys in the feathered headresses? I think they would differ with you on that.
Ooops
Of course, we all just know that the government would NEVER pass or attempt to enforce ANY law which does away with such basic rights as due process and habeus corpus on the pretext of public safety, right?
What's that now? Patriot Act? Started by Bush, continued under Obama!
Ooops.
Of course, we all know that the government would never start a war in two countries which did not attack us and don't have the logistical ability to do so, right? What? Afghanistan? Iraq?
Ooops.
Of course, we all know that the government would never persue a melicious investigation based on partisan rhetoric or press hysteria and hooplah on any level. Right?
What's that now? Kenneth Starr vs. Bill Clinton? Nifong vs The North Carolina University LaCross Team? Richard Jewell? McMartin Preschool? Dale Akiki???
Ohhh...Ooops.
And of course, we all know that government agents would never shoot the wrong target. Huh???? Randy Weaver's wife at Ruby Ridge?
Ooops.
Of course, we all know that government agents would never go for a high drama operation which places children at risk when the person they want to arrest could be picked up without any fuss along the roadside as he commutes to and from town every day....huh? Waco? David Koresh?????
Ooops.
We all know that the government would NEVER railroad innocent people into jail or onto death row. Huh? Project Innocence? Over 225 wrongfully convicted people cleared?
Ooops
And of course we all just know that the government is a model of morality, integrity, fidelity....
Ohhhh....manybe we don't want to go there. Seems like there's an awful lot of "oops" there. Way too much, and yet these are the same idiots who you want to entrust with a monopoly on deadly force.
Wanna call a given demographic paranoid?
Guess what, Da Gubmint gives them a damned good reason to be paranoid, and both sides are doing it.
Wake up people.
Whether all that is completely true or well-analyzed or not, who in his right mind thinks American citizens can hold off any government force (US or foreign) if they were determined to attack one American, a large group or the whole country? There would be a bloodbath, no matter how many weapons "the people" manage to stockpile. "The people" will lose, just as happened at Norco, Waco, Ruby Ridge and in the Dorner case. Meanwhile, we don't need a government attack to cause thousands of deaths a year from guns in the hands of the citizenry.
The UK, for one, seems to survive with strict gun control and "the gummint" hasn't tried rounding up unarmed people yet. I wonder why. To hear the NRA and individual gun nuts talk they're sitting ducks too stupid to arm themselves and hold off government forces. Meanwhile, the UK has an extremely low gun death rate. But you can't tell that to morons.
Few people know just how much power the NRA actually yields. Yes the gun manufacturers benefit from the paranoia pushing La Pierre but the organization intimidates the manufacturers to fall in line or go bankrupt, e.g. Smith and Wesson. The owner, seen with then Prez Clinton, agreed to issuing gun locks for all hand guns sold by the company. LaPierre didn’t like that idea (the old slippery slope argument) and called for a boycot of all S&W weapons driving them nearly to bankruptcy. S&W caved in and retracted their offer, begging to be let back into the fold. Since then all of them have been generous to the NRA and donations have poured in despite their concerns over background checks. In fact, one company had already instituted their own brand of background checks. So with the NRA, it’s the tail wagging the dog. These donations also help to buy votes for pro NRA political candidates. So they’re pretty much symbiotic. That’s why even Prez. Obama will be fighting an uphill battle in the near future. How will we handle the next mass killing? With more than tears and deep regret I hope. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-03-14/why-gun-makers-fear-the-nra#p5
Cap’t Jack
Whether all that is completely true or well-analyzed or not
It is.
Overall, you did a nice job of missing the point. Most gun control....to say nothing of a lot of other initiatives....assume at it's very core that Big Brother knows best and is worthy of being trusted.
It doesn't and it demonsterably is not. I made a point of citing whipping boys and issues harped on by both the right and the left so you have no room to complain and neither do your esteemed opponants on the other side. (Of course, a ot of people deep down are well aware of this but don't want to admit it when is comes to advocating whatever idiot right or left wing agendas they want to push on everybody else under penalty of law.).
You may wish all those ooopsies weren't there because they're so inconvenient but they are and they won't go away because you or your polar opposites don't like it.
Face it and deal with it.
The UK, for one, seems to survive with strict gun control and “the gummint" hasn’t tried rounding up unarmed people yet.
And the Swiss do just as well without it. (And they keep for real assault rifles IN THEIR HOMES as a part of their militia system.)
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc[/I] either way.
I wonder how many people who’re opposed to new gun regulation are okay with the US having the world’s largest military and massive stockpiles of nuclear weapons? I mean, if you can’t trust the government to properly regulate private weapons, how can you trust them to do anything right with their own weapons? I mean, if it came down to revolution in the streets, the average joe is kind of screwed when it comes to fighting back. The Libyans certainly weren’t able to make much headway against Qaddafi’s forces until NATO wiped out his air power and began supplying them with gear. The Syrians aren’t having much luck in getting rid of Assad after two years of fighting. Neither of those governments were armed with anything better than second rate military hardware, all of which pales in comparison to US gear.
Nor do I think that we can count on large numbers of the US military breaking ranks and joining with the rebellion. And any President intent upon waging war against the general population of the US is going to have no qualms about breaking out the nukes if a city gets too “uppity” and he’s uncertain of the loyalty of some of the military.
The Constitution of the US was a remarkable document, for its time. Many elements of it, however, have had to be revised over the years because we’ve realized that the Founding Fathers got it wrong. (The whole issue of slavery being the most obvious example, but there are others, like denying women the right to vote, and selecting senators.) To cling to it as an unchanging document, and screech that any suggested changes to it is a threat to our liberty, is no different than grabbing a Bible and hollering that it’s a perfect document, which should never be questioned.
Finally, the issue of banning guns as a way to prevent mass killings is going to be a moot one in a few years, anyway. 3D printers are getting cheaper and more capable all the time. Within 20 years, they’ll be as common as PCs are today, and if you want a gun, or even a freakin’ howitzer, you’ll be able to print one out in the privacy of your own home, any time you want. I don’t know about the rest of you, but my 16 year old self almost certainly would have printed out a functional howitzer if he’d have had the capability. I can’t imagine 16 year olds today are much different than I was.
And the Swiss do just as well without it. (And they keep for real assault rifles IN THEIR HOMES as a part of their militia system.).
Well, many Swiss disagree with you. For three weeks we had a gun rampage, and voices become louder to organise weapon administration much better. It is too easy not to be registered. Databases of Canton police, federal police, and the military are totally independent, and badly maintained.
It is a bonmot here that there are more regulations about banana trading than about gun trading and ownership. But maybe that applies more to international weapon trading...
EOC, I am aghast! How could you possibly claim that the government is incompetent, backed up, and wasteful?!
Just as a little aside DM, take a look at the current budget crisis which threatens to plunge this country into another recession if the "gubmint" doesn't get it's act together. On the one hand, both sides seem to be hell bent on orchestrating a crash right along party lines yet they're awarding billion dollar contracts left and right, floating proposals to fund ever more initiatives (Paid for with WHAT????) and oh yeah...Obama is climbing onto the "Iran is trying to obtain Nukes" bandwagon and is willing to use ALL means to stop them. (Paid for with WHAT????)
These are the same guys who we're being told should be trusted with a monopoly on deadly force.
Trusted?
The government?
I don't think so.
The 'budget crises' is a creation of the GOP. They are intent on bringing down the Obama presidency, even if it means bringing down the country. Debt is not the problem--and even THAT has been decreased during this presidency, despite what the rethuglicans tell you--the problem is lack of growth, and in order to get growth, you need to spend money. If the GOP can prevent the spending of money (and remember, the debt happened under a republican president who got us into TWO unnecessary wars), they can drive us back into a recession, and hope the blame will be put on the head of the president. They are a dishonest and despicably deceitful group.
Asanta:
It seems you have been paying attention to what is actually going on and not the political rhetoric of the right. How dare you?!?[/ :lol: :lol:
So what? Many do agree with me. Still, so what that as well? By and large, the Swiss just aren't going around murdering each other left and right, and it's not as if there's a lack of firearm availability. Instead of going for the old post hoc fallacy, you might want to consider other causative factors, such as economic disparities (Always a popular whipping boy for the left and not always wrong either!) Urban overcrowding, inequities and inequality in education, opportunities, etc.
For three weeks we had a gun rampage
You show me a rampage, and I'll show you in most instances where the shooter was putting out all sorts of warning signs which were softpedeled, dismissed, ignored or even hidden. Jared Loughner is a raving lunatic who should never have been on the streets to begin with under any circumstances. It's also telling that in the cases of the Colorado Theatre shooter and the Sandy Hook shooter that the one person who refused to make a deal with these guys was the eeeeeeeevile gun dealer. It's also telling to notice that the Sandy Hook shooter tried to buy guns ILLEGALLY with somebody else's I.D.
He was turned down. Since what he did was a felony offence, he should have been arrested at once and he wasn't.
In fact, that seems to be the pattern with the government. The background check laws in force are not statutes which anybody disagrees with, yet they seldom bother attempting to enforce them at all.
In short, government did what it usually does: It dropped the ball then wondered why tragedy was the end result.
The ‘budget crises’ is a creation of the GOP.
Half truth Asanta. And you know better then this too. This whole train wreck has been a long time coming. I'm well aware of what the Republicans are trying to do. It's reprehensible but in their goals, it's not at all different from what the Democrats try to do to them. The "cause" may differ, but the goal is exactly the same.
I would submit that anybody who thinks "Our Boys" are the angels who have nothing but love, the best of intentions, and the good of the country at heart is completely blind to all reality. Regardless of platform or whatever cause they pay lip service to, the Republicans and Democrats are about one thing and one thing ONLY: Putting their own empty suits into power while putting the other guy's empty suits out of power.
Guess I'm done here. So long as all I'm going to get is the party line, I can count on no rational discussion of either issue mooted here.