Is Reality "Intelligent"?

[quote=“write4u, post:76, topic:8045”]
Generic mathematics exists independent of humans. Many animals use mathematics, even if they don’t realize they are using mathemaicas without knowing it.
[/quote] What is Generic Mathematics? Sounds to me like you’re just pushing the definition out a bit. Humans have come up with generic ways to describe things, but it’s still just a human invention. The universe is what it is. Whether it’s inherently “mathematical” or not is known. It can certainly be described pretty accurately by what we call math, but that doesn’t mean much.

For example, take a big animal in an absolutely dark room. Now describe that animal using our senses - so you can touch it with your hands, maybe smell it, etc. Can’t see it because it’s absolutely dark, but you get my point. Now in this analogy what you’re saying is, the universe (our room plus us and this animal) is inherently “handsy”, as in it follows patterns of hand motions. So you’re equating this “hand math” with some universal property the universe adheres to independent of us. I’m saying no matter how you look at it, it’s still just our subjective hand-math that’s at work, not any universal thing. And you can even carry out this little analogy to the nth degree to make it SEEM like this hand-math is very complicated and somehow representative of “the truth”. But we don’t/can’t know that. It’s just a human invention.

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No you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Why is it that everyone always falls into anthropomorphization when discussing universal relational mathematics?

First, generic mathematics is the opposite of complicated. Max Tegmark has identified some 32 generic universal values and just a handful of equations that all of the universal generic mathematics rest.

AFAIK, “generic mathematics” are expression of the “guiding principles” of logical relational physical processes.

This is why the honeybee uses :


Honeybees are not mathematicians. So how did they learn this most efficient way of distributing equal spaces for incubation? You could not find this kind of mathematical precision in a hospital OB ward.

How does a chameleon strike a tasty morsel a body-length away?


Chameleons are not mathematicians. So how did they learn to gauge the exact distance to a very small target? Simple “triangulation” that relates to the fractality of spacetime.

How do regular patterns form in a chaotic condition? How does a waveform maintain its regularity? I could give you a thousand expressions of very simple generic universal mathematical functions.

They rest on the simple logical equation that 1 + 1 = 2 and all true extrapolations rest on that simple equation.

What is the logical expression?

A logical expression is a statement that can either be true or false . For example, is a logical expression. It can be true or false depending on what values are given.

Note that this differs from a mathematical expression which denotes a truth statement.

matlab Programming

James C. Squire P.E., Ph.D., Julie Phillips Brown Ph.D., in Programming for Electrical Engineers, 2021

Relational Expressions

A logical expression is a statement that evaluates to either “true” or “false.” Relational operators are a type of logical operator, and compare two values such as 5 > 4 (true) or 3 ≤ −4 (false). Matlab returns a 1 to indicate true and 0 to indicate false. Matlab has several types of relational operators; some of the most common are listed below:

Operator Name Example Example result
> Greater than (5 > 2) 1
< Less than 7 < -6 0
>= Greater than or equal to a = -5
a >= 6 0
<= Less than or equal to a = 7; b = 9
a∗b <= a+b 0
== Equal to 5 == 5 1
~= Not equal to 5 ∼ = 5 0
isequal() Equal to, works with strings, vectors, and matrices
a = ‘hello’
b = ‘Hello’
is equal (a,b) 0 (capitalization matters)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/logical-expression

These universal truths existed from the moment spacetime geometry began to form and the first elements self-organized in “regular” mathematical patterns that interacted in regular and predictable ways.

Without a mathematical essence to the universal “wholeness”, regular physics would not, could not exist. There would be only chaos.

The logic regulates the mathematical permissions and restrictions and we have noticed these natural potentials. Newton noticed that apples always fall down and never up and he figured out that something made that happen. If he had not figured out apples would still always fall down and never up. Gravity exists without human interpretation (anthropomorphization).

All interactive abstract and physical processes rest on generic mathematical guiding equations. This is why we can say that the universe is “quasi-intelligent” and human self-aware intelligence has recognized these regularities and has been able to quantify, symbolize and codify these universal properties into the language of “human mathematics”.

Again you put the cart before the horse. Everything you just described is based on our human understanding of ways to describe the universe. Yes there is some kind of order because as you said, without it there’s just chaos. But that doesn’t mean much. We use fancy symbols and arbitrary tricks that we call math to describe things. But that doesn’t mean the universe somehow subscribes to our tricks. And btw, 1 + 1 does not equal 2, that’s just something that’s true in certain contexts. One raindrop plus another raindrop equals one raindrop for example. The volume may double but the context is counting, not volume. And even if you’re talking about volume, there may be instances where volumes aren’t “conserved”. (Obviously this starts to boil down to conservation ideas which evidently aren’t even sacrosanct anymore.) In the end, you’re trying to force fit the way the universe operates into our local/human ways of describing it. Anyway, good conversation nonetheless. :wink:

That about sums it up. :v:t2:

[quote=“cuthbertj, post:86, topic:8045”]
Again you put the cart before the horse. Everything you just described is based on our human understanding of ways to describe the universe.

Nononono…!
Our understanding of things is the only thing we have. If I don’t understand a thing it still exists.
But if I do understand a thing and can represent it, I can prove it exists and that my understanding is correct. C’mon.

And the very fact that we do understand the mathematical nature of things proves that they do in fact exist.

Yes there is some kind of order because as you said, without it there’s just chaos. But that doesn’t mean much.

Are you serious? You agree that order in the universe exists and then claim that is unimportant to the existence of everything? You may want to reconsider that statement.

We use fancy symbols and arbitrary tricks that we call math to describe things. But that doesn’t mean the universe somehow subscribes to our tricks. And btw, 1 + 1 does not equal 2, that’s just something that’s true in certain contexts.

Again it is you who is turning this upside down.
First, human mathematics are not a trick. They are symbolizations of what we understand of the mathematical nature of the universal potentials.

A magician does tricks. Are you calling all mathematicians charlatans?
You just insulted the greatest minds in the history of science.
The human symbolization of universal mathematics is the greatest accomplishment of the human mind.

MATHEMATICS IS THE LANGUAGE OF THE UNIVERSE!
Naah, it’s just made up tricks. Being able to count helps with paying for groceries.

I see, context is unimportant! Well, that explains it then. How far down do you want to drag this?

One raindrop plus another raindrop equals one raindrop for example. The volume may double but the context is counting, not volume.

I see, the measurement of volume is an uncountable mathematical equation.
C’mon, please.

And even if you’re talking about volume, there may be instances where volumes aren’t “conserved”. (Obviously this starts to boil down to conservation ideas which evidently aren’t even sacrosanct anymore.) In the end, you’re trying to force fit the way the universe operates into our local/human ways of describing it.

No, you are trying to force-fit human mathematics into the generic mathematics of the universe. Why do you think we are constantly revising human mathematics with our increasing knowledge of universal mathematical functions .

Newton understood a little of universal maths as applied to local conditions, but Einstein improved it to mathematically account for universal conditions.

Just because human mathematics are approximations of what we are able to observe, doesn’t mean that what they describe does not exist.
You just cling to this subjective perspective.

Let go of human maths and look at the constant mathematical regularities in nature.
image
Note the fractality that governs the mathematical duplication of chromosomal growth instructions

What is mitosis?

Mitosis is a multi-step process that requires the duplication of chromosomes which are then aligned and separated to the opposite poles of a cell in order for the cell to divide to give rise to two new identical daughter cells. Chromosomes that each daughter cell will have are normally replicated during the preceding S phase of interphase s. The interphase is the period before cell division where the cell grows and performs its normal function prior to when a signal will be received to start dividing. There are normally four phases of mitosis which are prophase, anaphase, metaphase, and telophase. The explanation of these four steps will be done below.

Photo of Mitosis: Stages of mitosis in order (Prophase, Metaphase, Anaphase and Telophase)
A diagram showing the stages of mitosis and what happens at each stage.

What happens during the process of mitosis?

The process begins with Prophase and ends with Telophase and this is best described using diagrams which are shown below. Mitosis, in reality, is a continuous process and it has been divided into steps or stages just to help in understanding it. The mitosis diagrams shown have been simplified so as to make it easy as the number of chromosomes shown are actually many but have been reduced in the diagrams to four. The diagrams you are seeing are showing the nucleus and not the cytoplasm of the cell because the process of mitosis occurs in the nucleus of cells that have the ability to divide.

The chromosomes in plant cells behave in a similar manner as the chromosomes of animal cells, even though the plant cells do not contain centrosomes and a new cell wall always forms between the daughter nuclei after nuclear division. The whole process of mitosis can be viewed or observed using a light microscope.

Definition of terms used in the explanation of mitosis

For you to easily understand this process, there is a need to explain some terms used in the description of the process.

  1. Daughter cells: Daughter cells in mitosis refer to the cells that are formed from the parent cell. A parent cell is a single cell that will divide itself into two to form the daughter cells. Please note that after mitosis, you have two cells from a single cell. It is not as if the parent cell is different from the two daughter cells formed; it is as if you cut a single orange to form two equal halves and the equal halves now are called daughter cells.
  2. Chromatids : Chromatids are the strands of replicated chromosomes that become the chromosomes when they contract
  3. Microtubules : Microtubules are support fibers for the movement of chromosomes during mitosis
  4. Centromeres: Centromeres are needed for the separation of chromatids during mitosis and they are visible as constrictions that serve as sites of attachment of spindle microtubules.
  5. Kinetochore : this helps to bind bundles of microtubules called spindle fibers as they extend from the kinetochores to the poles of the spindle during mitosis

What is the purpose of mitosis?

The significance of mitosis is to produce cells that are similar in function and structure to replace worn-out cells or damaged cells of the body.

Duplication (doubling) is a mathematical function!

Anyway, good conversation nonetheless.

Then why are you dumbing it down?
Peter Higgs mathematically “tricked” the Higgs Field to manifest a Higgs boson, a particle that cannot exist independent of a very specific dynamic event .

Higgs and his “mathematical tricks” predicted that energy applied in accordance to his mathematical equations would be causal to the Higgs boson to become manifest for an instant and then decay immediately.

btw. His mathematical tricks earned him a Nobel prize.
But then, that’s just like receiving a Teddy bear when shooting three bottles at the county fair.

You should learn some mathematics.

Why is mathematics called the universal language?

Because mathematics is the same all over the world , math can act as a universal language. A phrase or formula has the same meaning, regardless of another language that accompanies it. In this way, math helps people learn and communicate, even if other communication barriers exist.

What Is a Language?

There are multiple definitions of “language.”
A language may be a system of words or codes used within a discipline. Language may refer to a system of communication using symbols or sounds. [Linguist] (Definition and Examples of Linguists)

Noam Chomsky defined language as a set of sentences constructed using a finite set of elements. Some linguists believe language should be able to represent events and abstract concepts.
Whichever definition is used, a language contains the following components:
There must be a vocabulary of words or symbols.:

  • Meaning must be attached to the words or symbols.
  • A language employs grammar, which is a set of rules that outline how vocabulary is used.
  • A syntax organizes symbols into linear structures or propositions.
  • A narrative or discourse consists of strings of syntactic propositions.
  • There must be (or have been) a group of people who use and understand the symbols.

Mathematics meets all of these requirements. The symbols, their meanings, syntax, and grammar are the same throughout the world. Mathematicians, scientists, and others use math to communicate concepts. Mathematics describes itself (a field called meta-mathematics), real-world phenomena, and abstract concepts.

https://www.mathnasium.com/southtowns/news/httpswwwthoughtcocomwhy-mathematics-is-a-language-4158142textin20order20to20be20consideredthis20definition20of20a20languagetextmath20is20a20universal20languageevery20country20of20the20worldC

The great discovery is that humans have learned the language of the universe and are able to speak it in “human terms”.

Consider the Universe as Shakespeare and humans as 12th grade English language students.

Is nature mathematical? | New Scientist

‘The great book of nature,’ wrote Galileo, 'is written in mathematical language. ’ Scientists do not use mathematics merely as a convenient way of organising the data. They believe that mathematical relationships reflect real aspects of the physical world . Mar 21, 1992

https://www.newscientist.com › article › mg13318134-40…
](Is nature mathematical? | New Scientist)

Some trick the Universe plays on man’s mind, no?

This is why I can say with confidence that the Universe is “Quasi-Intelligent” and I am absolutely correct in that analogy.

You’re getting hung up on my use of the word “tricks”. Math and physics are incredible, Einstein in fact is a hero of mine. BUT the math, regardless of how complex it is, is just a human system invented to help describe things. That the parts of the universe we can observe can be somewhat described by math, even very precisely, is a testament to how clever the “system-makers” are. But it doesn’t follow that the universe itself is at all guided by that math. And other system-makers in other civilizations out there might use something totally different - in kind, not different in form. (That was the point of my reference to Arrival, regarding language.)

As for the universe being intelligent - that’s a tautology, since you and me, as I type this and you read this, are expressing intelligent thoughts, we’re thinking, and there’s no difference between us and the universe. Our stupid little bodies might be temporary, but we’re just an assemblage of universe stuff, like little backwater “particles” if you will.

Thought of a good analogy… was watching the sci-fi movie Battleship (yes, based off the board game, but barely. It’s actually a fun and at time really sharp sci-fi movie). But anyway, in the movie one of the alien ships crashes to earth. They determine it’s alien because it’s made of elements that aren’t on the periodic table. SO - if the periodic table is the structured way in which humans have described/organized the material world, then our conversation here is like you saying “the periodic table proves the universe is governed by these here principles”, and I’m saying “yes, the universe is definitely ordered, and our periodic table seems to describe it nicely, but that doesn’t mean the universe follows our lil table”.

KI am not a scientist, but in my memory, the periodic table classifies the elements according to their atomic structure.

After the table was created, new elements were found and integrated, among them radium and so.

It means that, yes new elements unknown today on earth can be found. but that’s would not invalidate the present table, it would just mean it needs to be completed.

But don’t you see that even using different symbolisms the maths remain the same.

Ricky Gervais had a wonderful example that actually impressed Colbert who is a devout catholic in the best sense of the word.
Watch this little video and watch Colbert admit the brilliance of the observation.

This is one more of the reasons why I believe in a logically generic mathematically ordered Universe.

Reality is quasi-intelligent in that it follows logical mathematical guiding equations and processes and always seeks to find symmetry, which may be the inherent drive for seeking dynamical balance.
Example:
Gravity allows for the self-formation of near perfect mathematical symmetry as in the level distribution of liquids.
Or a pendulum coming to rest pointing at the exact center of a planet.

The reason that natural objects are not always perfect is the fact that spacetime and planetary ecologies are dynamic environments and it is impossible to self-organize perfect patterns.

Another one of the near perfect natural quasi-intelligent self-forming patterns is the hexagonal honeycomb.
This pattern is so efficient that evolution has managed to not only self-organize hexagonal honeycomb patterns , but also has instilled this pattern in living organisms not only as an efficient use of living/storage space arrangements but in eye patterns found in the compound eyes of many insects.

Dragonfly hexagonal compound eyes.
image image
image image

In bubbles and rocks
image image

(Interesting discussion btw)
I think here again you’re putting the cart before the horse. If there was some underlying “beautifully logical process” at work, then how do you explain a tree? Or a rock? (i.e. things that are almost completely irregular) You’re just cherry picking examples.

Now that’s not to say there isn’t some kind of order in the universe, obviously. But what physicists do is come up with arbitrary ways to deal with the observations. You mention an alien civilization still having symbols that represent the underlying “math”. I’m saying no, I suspect there might be ways of describing the world that don’t involve symbols at all. Again, that was my reference to Arrival. We project our way of doing things onto the universe and other civilizations. I think that’s a mistake.

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What are you talking about, “completely irregular”?

Have you considered what these objects are made of and under what dynamical circumstances? They may appear to be grossly irregular, but if you start reducing the parts you will find that the smaller you get the more regular it all becomes.
Trees use the Fibonacci Sequence to grow limbs.

The Secret of the Fibonacci Sequence in Trees

On the oak tree, the Fibonacci fraction is 2/5, which means that the spiral takes five branches to spiral two times around the trunk to complete one pattern. Other trees with the Fibonacci leaf arrangement are the elm tree (1/2); the beech (1/3); the willow (3/8) and the almond tree (5/13) (Livio, Adler).

Rocks have crystalline arrangements

Crystal

Description

A crystal or crystalline solid is a solid material whose constituents are arranged in a highly ordered microscopic structure, forming a crystal lattice that extends in all directions.

Everything in nature is logically ordered. Any variables are caused by the dynamic nature of natural environments.

This is why I like Max Tegmarks “Mathematical Universe” which renders the Universe a quasi-intelligent dynamic object…

Check out CDT (causal dynamical triangulation)

Causal dynamical triangulation (abbreviated as CDT) theorized by Renate Loll, Jan Ambjørn and Jerzy Jurkiewicz, is an approach to quantum gravity that, like loop quantum gravity, is background independent.

This means that it does not assume any pre-existing arena (dimensional space), but rather attempts to show how the spacetime fabric itself evolves.

There is evidence [1] that at large scales CDT approximates the familiar 4-dimensional spacetime, but shows spacetime to be 2-dimensional near the Planck scale, and reveals a fractal structure on slices of constant time. These interesting results agree with the findings of Lauscher and Reuter, who use an approach called Quantum Einstein Gravity, and with other recent theoretical work.

You showed images of honeycombs and whatnot as examples of the regularity of nature. So I countered with trees and rocks. Sure, you can take just about anything and reduce it to something that appears regular. That’s not the point. The point is, you keep trying to impose your “map” on the “territory”. I’m saying the universe doesn’t care one bit about the maps we try to impose - it does what it does and our simple minds try to figure it out with our self-invented little “maps”. The maps are good at getting things done, making predictions, etc. but that in itself doesn’t imply that therefore the universe follows our “maps”. Other civilizations may explain things using methods we wouldn’t even recognize as “maps” at all.

Let me put it another way. Pretend there’s a creator who’s creating the universe. I’m saying at no point did It think to itself, gee let me come up with this thing, I’ll call it multiplication, and this thing called equivalence. And now let me create this thing gravity and so on. Now I think I’ll make my universe so that Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration, F = ma. There we go, all set. That’s what I’m saying is not the case. F = ma is just our simplistic way of trying to grasp things. (and of course that extends to more complex equations).

[quote=“cuthbertj, post:97, topic:8045”]
You showed images of honeycombs and whatnot as examples of the regularity of nature. So I countered with trees and rocks. Sure, you can take just about anything and reduce it to something that appears regular. That’s not the point.

You are confusing complexity with irregularity.
I explained that underneath all natural patterns lies a mathematical guiding equation. This is why our symbolic mathematics are so effective in analyzing and explaining natural phenomena.

The point is, you keep trying to impose your “map” on the “territory”. I’m saying the universe doesn’t care one bit about the maps we try to impose - it does what it does and our simple minds try to figure it out with our self-invented little “maps”. The maps are good at getting things done, making predictions, etc. but that in itself doesn’t imply that therefore the universe follows our “maps”. Other civilizations may explain things using methods we wouldn’t even recognize as “maps” at all.

You have this all backwards. Our maps don’t impose any regularity on the universe. The universe imposes the regularity in our maps.

Let me put it another way. Pretend there’s a creator who’s creating the universe. I’m saying at no point did It think to itself, gee let me come up with this thing, I’ll call it multiplication, and this thing called equivalence. And now let me create this thing gravity and so on. Now I think I’ll make my universe so that Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration, F = ma. There we go, all set. That’s what I’m saying is not the case. F = ma is just our simplistic way of trying to grasp things. (and of course that extends to more complex equations).

No, I am not pretending anything about “Intelligent Design” which is an anthropomorphization of “Natural Generic Mathematical Guiding Equations.”

The function of 1 + 1 = 2 is not man-made. It is a natural equation of natural values. The symbolic numbers are man-made and are merely a codification of natural values.

If you believe that E = MC^2 is a simple equation, you have no clue about the analysis of generic values involved in the result of that predictive function.

Function, noun

  1. an activity or purpose natural to a thing.
    “bridges perform the function of providing access across water”
    Similar: purpose, task, use, role, reason, basis, justification, responsibility, duty, concern, province, aim, activity, assignment, obligation, charge, chore, job, errand, mission. detail, undertaking, commission, capacity, post, situation, office, occupation, employment, business, operation, raison d’être, line of country, thing.

mathematics, verb
2. a relationship or expression involving one or more variables.
“the function (bx + c)”
work or operate in a proper or particular way. “her liver is functioning normally”
Similar: work, go, run, be in working/running order, operate, perform, be in action, be operative
Opposite: malfunction

Oxford languages dictionary

In mathematics, a function from a set X to a set Y assigns to each element of X exactly one element of Y.[1] The set X is called the domain of the function[2] and the set Y is called the codomain of the function.[3][citation needed]

Functions were originally the idealization of how a varying quantity depends on another quantity. For example, the position of a planet is a function of time. Historically, the concept was elaborated with the infinitesimal calculus at the end of the 17th century, and, until the 19th century, the functions that were considered were differentiable (that is, they had a high degree of regularity). The concept of a function was formalized at the end of the 19th century in terms of set theory, and this greatly enlarged the domains of application of the concept.

Ever seen this abstract “map”?
image
Schematic depiction of a function described metaphorically as a “machine” or “black box” that for each input yields a corresponding output

The universe “functions” guided by certain logical permissions and restrictions depending on the generic relational values involved.

There is no intent, motive, wish, emotion involved . It is just the way things work.
That is why we see so many similarities in nature. The rules are simple generic mathematical equations.

That is why I call Reality “quasi-intelligent”, it appears to be intelligent, but it isn’t conscious. It is just sets of rules inherent and essential in the geometry of the spacetime fabric.

All I can say is watch this.

Well I guess we’re getting nowhere. I’m a programmer, so I know all about functions. Regardless, that just buries the man-made math a little deeper. And if your response to my “pretend there’s a creator” is to say that there’s no emotion, motive, etc then you completely missed the point of my analogy.

Let me ask you this - if you think the “territory” imposes the map (territory being the universe, map being the math) then how can you explain the fact that the same math/map that can be used to do physics can be used for the completely human area of economics or data science/AI? So for example tensors can be used in relativity, but also in data science/AI. How is that possible other than by the math being purely man-made. Or are you saying the universe imposes it’s order on economics?

I know this ain’t my conversation, and I certain don’t agree with Write’s Math as God implications - but it seems to me natural fractals explain that.

Folds within folds of cumulative harmonic complexity flowing down the stream of time.

Human society is a reflection of natural mammalian societies, who in turn reflect earlier trends in animal behavior.

Since we all biological beings do have roughly same needs and limitation. Commerce and world trade follows the same natural patterns - humans have simply been able to add all sorts of new window dressing upon it.

Which, if you think about it, can be abstracted back to the simplest biological entities.

Roger Penrose discusses Bohmian Mechanics.

This may be of interest.
Andy Fletcher
Science Speaker in 280+ Schools in 43 Countries at Life, The Universe & Everything (2002–present)Sep 26

What can mathematics tell us about the nature of the universe?
The mystery of Math. Here’s what a few smart guys think:
Nobel Laureate Eugene Wigner: …the enormous usefulness of mathematics in the natural sciences is something bordering on the mysterious in that there is no rational explanation for it.

Nobel Laureate Richard Feynman: Why nature is mathematical is a mystery… The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle.
Galileo: The book of nature is written in mathematical language.
Roger Penrose (Oxford): The more deeply we probe the fundamentals of physical behaviour, the more that it is very precisely controlled by mathematics. The mathematics that we find is not just of a direct calculational nature; it is of a profoundly sophisticated character, where there is subtlety and beauty …

And here is a bit of that elegance in the Pythagorean Theorem:
3² + 4² = 5²
10² + 11² + 12² = 13² + 14²

And here is the most beautiful equation of all:
image

Humans invented the symbolism and the grammar of mathematics, but we discovered that the universe is written in the language of mathematics. We have no idea why. It just is.

And math reveals the secrets of the universe to us; Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity told us that the universe had a starting point of space and time, something we did not suspect, did not initially believe, and for many, still do not want to believe.
The physics of the universe appeared courtesy of Big Bang, along with spacetime.
Where the math came from, is a mystery. Quantum mechanics is just math that tells us how the universe works. Where did QM come from? It is a mystery.

IMO, math is an extension of LOGIC, the natural interaction of relational values (potentials)