My current state of mind is from coming into contact with nihilism and not being able to shake it. To keep thinking about how empty life is of every perception we have of it. That the only sense of achievement is that, a sense. Based on an arbitrary scale that we have decided upon to give the impression of mastery and skill when it’s all just actions in the end. No good, no bad, skilled or unskilled. It’s all empty. Can we even call what we have done achievements? If no one recognizes it can it even exist? If we say it enough times do we begin to believe it? It all just seems like the motions of a clock. Ticking, repeating, the numbers really just for decoration and signifying nothing.
There is no such thing as achievement, nothing to strive for. It’s all empty.
But that doesn't explain how atheists deal with it. I mean I already saw the humanism argument shut downNo, you didn't. The humanism argument is alive and well. You are engaging in wishful thinking. You want to fight the humanist argument and the religious argument at the same time. You want to eat your cake and have it. When and where do you think the humanist argumemt was was "shut down"? You think it was shut down because you're on the fence and refuse to get off. Your problem is that you say you can't turn back to religion, yet you carry an enormous religious burden. Atheists manage because we have shed the religious burden that only religion will "save us"--save us from religious threats and manipulations. You are trying to serve two masters. You can't reject religion and still want a religious remedy You're sitting on the fence. No wonder you can't deal with it. You're trying to play both sides against the middle. As long as you do that you will be on tenterhooks for the rest of your life, pining for what you can't have. Either give up all vestiges of religion, including the religious burden or go back to religion. One or the other. Otherwise you will be a fence sitter your whole life and you will never be at peace. It's your choice. You are actually incorrect. The religion aspect doesn't really bother me that much at all. Its the meaningless universe. What does religion do but purport to create meaning for the universe? Meaning IS religion. The humanism bit was kind of defeated in the link I posted. I also believe the universe wouldn't have meaning just because there was a god in it either. For why would it have meaning just because god said so? Plus there is this page: http://scriptoriumdaily.com/making-meaning-in-a-meaningless-world-five-ways-that-wont-work/ So if you think this is based in religion you would be wrong. But I am disappointed with the secular view I find myself accepting. It seems rather weak. If you are disappointed and find secularism weak, find something else. You have given up religion and you find secularism wanting. Let us know when you find something. S--t or get off the pot. Meanwhile all you are doing is whining. You want "meaning", but you won't accept the meaning religion offers, you won't accept the secular view of finding your own meaning. What do you want? A Teddy Bear, a bedtime fairytale and a pacifier? You are apparently incapable of finding meaning in your life. Nobody can provide it for you. You are rejecting every possibility. You will just have to live with being a permanent malcontent, which apparently offers you some comfort. I see no help for you.
The secular view will always fail because you can’t find meaning in a universe that doesn’t have any.
I reject those possibilities because they don’t offer convincing arguments.
I mean we live in an illusion of our own making. The awards and recognition we value are just hollow praise. In the end they are words signifying nothing. Empty. All part of the illusion we weave to trick ourselves that what we do matters. But our values: justice, helping others, right and wrong, all are subjective. With no objective morality what makes one right or wrong? Why should we do right? Why bother to uphold it? To preserve humans? Why?
No words I read can answer those questions.
Also I did see those movies but they still couldn’t answer anything.
The secular view will always fail because you can't find meaning in a universe that doesn't have any. I reject those possibilities because they don't offer convincing arguments. I mean we live in an illusion of our own making. The awards and recognition we value are just hollow praise. In the end they are words signifying nothing. Empty. All part of the illusion we weave to trick ourselves that what we do matters. But our values: justice, helping others, right and wrong, all are subjective. With no objective morality what makes one right or wrong? Why should we do right? Why bother to uphold it? To preserve humans? Why? No words I read can answer those questions. Also I did see those movies but they still couldn't answer anything.You can find meaning in your own life. You are looking for something supernatural--no doubt a vestige of your religious indoctrination. I have found satisfying meaning in my life as most atheists have. I don't need meaning based on fantasies. I'm happy with what I've got. I have no need for anything metaphysical. My atheist friends have the same attitude. You are chasing a fantasy. You will never be satisfied. You are pining for the impossible.
In the end they are words signifying nothing.Okay Mr. Shakespeare fancy pants
“You are already what want to become. You are still searching because you still want to deny yourself, to become someone else, something else.”
Thich Nhat Hanh
The secular view will always fail because you can't find meaning in a universe that doesn't have any. I reject those possibilities because they don't offer convincing arguments. I mean we live in an illusion of our own making. The awards and recognition we value are just hollow praise. In the end they are words signifying nothing. Empty. All part of the illusion we weave to trick ourselves that what we do matters. But our values: justice, helping others, right and wrong, all are subjective. With no objective morality what makes one right or wrong? Why should we do right? Why bother to uphold it? To preserve humans? Why? No words I read can answer those questions. Also I did see those movies but they still couldn't answer anything.Your problem is you've predefined meaning as something that cannot be created by humans. You've also predefined it as something that must be absolute in order to have value. Again, you're just ruling options out from the start. Why can't meaning be subjective and not absolute, and we just do the best we can. Here's a little analogy. If tomorrow we all decided stop signs would be blue, what would happen? Nothing. But wait, how can we control traffic and be safe if stop signs aren't absolutely and always red? We can stay safe because we all agree on blue as the stop sign color. No different than the meaning you're looking for. Of course it's not nearly as cut and dried as my stop sign analogy, but overall, it is the same thing, and "agreement about colors" changes over time and that's ok. And if you're looking for something from God, well you lose there too. There's no reason God couldn't have just created us as value-creating beings. She could have intended us to create our own values instead of Her creating them all for us. A point religious folks seem to miss.
The secular view will always fail because you can't find meaning in a universe that doesn't have any. I reject those possibilities because they don't offer convincing arguments. I mean we live in an illusion of our own making. The awards and recognition we value are just hollow praise. In the end they are words signifying nothing. Empty. All part of the illusion we weave to trick ourselves that what we do matters. But our values: justice, helping others, right and wrong, all are subjective. With no objective morality what makes one right or wrong? Why should we do right? Why bother to uphold it? To preserve humans? Why? No words I read can answer those questions. Also I did see those movies but they still couldn't answer anything.Your problem is you've predefined meaning as something that cannot be created by humans. You've also predefined it as something that must be absolute in order to have value. Again, you're just ruling options out from the start. Why can't meaning be subjective and not absolute, and we just do the best we can. Here's a little analogy. If tomorrow we all decided stop signs would be blue, what would happen? Nothing. But wait, how can we control traffic and be safe if stop signs aren't absolutely and always red? We can stay safe because we all agree on blue as the stop sign color. No different than the meaning you're looking for. Of course it's not nearly as cut and dried as my stop sign analogy, but overall, it is the same thing, and "agreement about colors" changes over time and that's ok. And if you're looking for something from God, well you lose there too. There's no reason God couldn't have just created us as value-creating beings. She could have intended us to create our own values instead of Her creating them all for us. A point religious folks seem to miss. ALL sense of "meaning" is subjective. Nobody can find it for us. There is no absolute meaning to life just as there is no absolute morality.
The secular view will always fail because you can't find meaning in a universe that doesn't have any. I reject those possibilities because they don't offer convincing arguments. I mean we live in an illusion of our own making. The awards and recognition we value are just hollow praise. In the end they are words signifying nothing. Empty. All part of the illusion we weave to trick ourselves that what we do matters. But our values: justice, helping others, right and wrong, all are subjective. With no objective morality what makes one right or wrong? Why should we do right? Why bother to uphold it? To preserve humans? Why? No words I read can answer those questions. Also I did see those movies but they still couldn't answer anything.You can find meaning in your own life. You are looking for something supernatural--no doubt a vestige of your religious indoctrination. I have found satisfying meaning in my life as most atheists have. I don't need meaning based on fantasies. I'm happy with what I've got. I have no need for anything metaphysical. My atheist friends have the same attitude. You are chasing a fantasy. You will never be satisfied. You are pining for the impossible. Not even close. I'm just looking for something. But it's hard when the world around you is subjective and so are the values. Just a construct, a dream I guess. How do you find meaning in this illusion we have created, aka society. Every standard is just arbitrary and subject to change all the time. What meaning could there be in something so frail and fluctuating. You atheists seem to say you have found it but I can't see how. I think it must be some illusion you weave for yourself. Even I have to say religion doesn't give meaning. Upon questioning it falls apart, just like the secular view.
But if there is no absolute morality then why bother following the code we have?
History tells us that your issues are not new.
Platonism is the view that there exist such things as abstract objects — where an abstract object is an object that does not exist in space or time and which is therefore entirely non-physical and non-mental.
Ontology is the philosophical study of the nature of being, becoming, existence or reality as well as the basic categories of being and their relations.
Platonism and Ontology combined equals “Know yourself". This came about in the fourth century B.C.
This evolved into “Know your true self – the soul". And soul at that time meant “mind". So, we could say know your own mind.
It was part of the Seven Sages of the ancient world. It seems to have originated in India known in the old Vedas as saptarishi and then move to Europe. Then it was picked up by the Gnostic writers. Where it was found in the Nag Hammadi Library in The Teachings of Silvanus. The Teachings of Silvanus is still being argued today whether or not it is Gnostic work.
What does all this mean? The Gnostics were trying to understand the answers to your questions. They were dealing with the divine spark and the universe. The Ancient philosophers had already rationalized the thinking into thought, wisdom and reason. Scholars today are now in the process of re-understanding Gnosticism. But basically, if I am able to get my point across it worked this way. It was all about the deification of knowledge and the system of angelification. The Father is the knowledge of the Universe or Heaven, the Son is the knowledge of the earth.
Let’s try to apply what we have so far. If people felt the same as you are feeling, then they could Self-deifying to the level they felt comfortable and have meaning with life. M. David Litwa from the college of William & Mary argues that it involves three moments. One is you realize you are divine, then you deal with your self-knowledge and last you identify with a higher divine self.
The point being. Though out the history of mankind from pre-history to the Gnostic teachings of Jesus, the original God was nothing more than knowledge and it is all about the intellect. In the Gnostic teaching once you have true self, then you gain self-knowledge, meaning you get to know your true nature.
Michel Foucault said: [“From the idea that the self is not given to us, I think that there is only one practical consequence: we have to create ourselves as a work of art." This process of self-creation-of self-beautification—is exactly what gnostic self-deification is all about.]
The secular view will always fail because you can't find meaning in a universe that doesn't have any. I reject those possibilities because they don't offer convincing arguments. I mean we live in an illusion of our own making. The awards and recognition we value are just hollow praise. In the end they are words signifying nothing. Empty. All part of the illusion we weave to trick ourselves that what we do matters. But our values: justice, helping others, right and wrong, all are subjective. With no objective morality what makes one right or wrong? Why should we do right? Why bother to uphold it? To preserve humans? Why? No words I read can answer those questions. Also I did see those movies but they still couldn't answer anything.Your problem is you've predefined meaning as something that cannot be created by humans. You've also predefined it as something that must be absolute in order to have value. Again, you're just ruling options out from the start. Why can't meaning be subjective and not absolute, and we just do the best we can. Here's a little analogy. If tomorrow we all decided stop signs would be blue, what would happen? Nothing. But wait, how can we control traffic and be safe if stop signs aren't absolutely and always red? We can stay safe because we all agree on blue as the stop sign color. No different than the meaning you're looking for. Of course it's not nearly as cut and dried as my stop sign analogy, but overall, it is the same thing, and "agreement about colors" changes over time and that's ok. And if you're looking for something from God, well you lose there too. There's no reason God couldn't have just created us as value-creating beings. She could have intended us to create our own values instead of Her creating them all for us. A point religious folks seem to miss. ALL sense of "meaning" is subjective. Nobody can find it for us. There is no absolute meaning to life just as there is no absolute morality.Umm, I just said that.
But if there is no absolute morality then why bother following the code we have?Because presumably you don't want to end up in jail. Simple as that.
But what about the struggle to live? Why keep on living in this world that we have created? How can one find any meaning in this fabrication?What fabrication is that? Our struggle to live is genetic. You imply we have a choice. Whether we find meaning in our lives has no impact on our iinstinct to survive. Meaning is conscious, the struggle to live is not. I mean the world and rules humans made for themselves What about them?
The secular view will always fail because you can't find meaning in a universe that doesn't have any. I reject those possibilities because they don't offer convincing arguments. I mean we live in an illusion of our own making. The awards and recognition we value are just hollow praise. In the end they are words signifying nothing. Empty. All part of the illusion we weave to trick ourselves that what we do matters. But our values: justice, helping others, right and wrong, all are subjective. With no objective morality what makes one right or wrong? Why should we do right? Why bother to uphold it? To preserve humans? Why? No words I read can answer those questions. Also I did see those movies but they still couldn't answer anything.You can find meaning in your own life. You are looking for something supernatural--no doubt a vestige of your religious indoctrination. I have found satisfying meaning in my life as most atheists have. I don't need meaning based on fantasies. I'm happy with what I've got. I have no need for anything metaphysical. My atheist friends have the same attitude. You are chasing a fantasy. You will never be satisfied. You are pining for the impossible. Not even close. I'm just looking for something. But it's hard when the world around you is subjective and so are the values. Just a construct, a dream I guess. How do you find meaning in this illusion we have created, aka society. Every standard is just arbitrary and subject to change all the time. What meaning could there be in something so frail and fluctuating. You atheists seem to say you have found it but I can't see how. I think it must be some illusion you weave for yourself. Even I have to say religion doesn't give meaning. Upon questioning it falls apart, just like the secular view. The secular view falls apart for you because you are looking for something absolute. We secular-minded people are not. It doesn't fall apart for us. That's just your perception from the outside. You'll never know what it's like to be secular-minded unless you are secular-minded-truly secular-minded, not just faking it. You will never understand how we do it from the outside. You are trapped by religious ideas.
In the end they are words signifying nothing.Okay Mr. Shakespeare fancy pants It wasn't words that Shakespeare said signified nothing--it was sound and fury. Lois
In the end they are words signifying nothing.Okay Mr. Shakespeare fancy pants It wasn't words that Shakespeare said signified nothing--it was sound and fury. Lois “Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." I think he meant life. I don't know the full context.
http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-life-really-worth-living?nsort=5&ysort=5
The NO replies on here also seem like a good case for life being a curse
Also the first reply to this.