A friend of mine, call him Joe, thinks the elderly, those above age 75 let’s say, are under-represented in the Olympics. He thinks there should be a concerted effort, legal if necessary, to have the elderly better represented in the Olympics in line with their percentage of the population. Do you agree with Joe?
I’m sure you see my point. If we tell Joe there are just some physical and mental differences that preclude the elderly from the Olympics, am I being age-ist? And now I’m NOT telling Joe to not try. If you can run a mile in under 4 minutes, go for it Joe. But as far as making a special effort to get more 80 year olds onto the Olympic track team, I think most people would say Joe’s nuts. But then what do we say to women OR men, when they want to be included in areas where, darn it, there just are differences that preclude them? Is one option to lie to ourselves and claim there actually are no physical and mental differences between genders, races, etc.? Do we be honest and say there are differences, but we’re going to ignore them, which I think most people would call “playing to the least common denominator”?
Honestly I don’t know. Your thoughts?
Are there age rules?
I thought if you can compete, you’re eligible.
This is a bad analogy. Everyone should be allowed to compete for whatever position based on merit. If they have the ability and the skill they should be given a position. If a 75 yr old can run the mile in 3:45 then he should not be kept out of the Olympics because of his age. That would be ageism. Barring him from competition because he doesn’t have then necessary skills or talent isn’t ageism just as it wouldn’t be racism to bar a young black male from competing if he couldn’t meet the time requirements.
The important feature of my analogy is that he thinks there should be legal action taken to ensure that the elderly are equally represented in the Olympics. As I said, he can certainly try, and there’s nothing (I’m assuming) in the rulebook that says elderly aren’t allowed to compete. But he’s going beyond that to saying certain actions should be taken to ENSURE that the right # of elderly compete.
SO Macgyver: why do we have laws regarding affirmative action? Shouldn’t everyone just be allowed to [blank] based on merit?
The important feature of my analogy is that he thinks there should be legal action taken to ensure that the elderly are equally represented in the Olympics. As I said, he can certainly try, and there's nothing (I'm assuming) in the rulebook that says elderly aren't allowed to compete. But he's going beyond that to saying certain actions should be taken to ENSURE that the right # of elderly compete. SO Macgyver: why do we have laws regarding affirmative action? Shouldn't everyone just be allowed to [blank] based on merit?Affirmative action is there to try and compensate for past and present discrimination that prevents people from attaining education and jobs that they might have been able to if the discrimination had not existed. In a perfect world there would be no discrimination and everyone would be chosen for their job or given a seat at college based on merit but unfortunately we don't live in that world. People in power often allow personal biases to affect their hiring decisions and having quotas is an attempt to circumvent. I am not saying that affirmative action is a good solution, but its the only solution anyone has come up with. Affirmative action is in itself discriminatory and over time can be corrosive. My kids all recently graduated from college and during the admissions process there were many less qualified minorities who got accepted to schools that they got rejection letters from. Allowing less qualified minorities can also have the opposite effect from what is intended if it perpetuates sterotypes. Allowing an academically inferior minority student to go to medical school and become a doctor may reinforce someones opinion that blacks are not as smart because this one black doctor happens to be a poor physician. Better perhaps to have ten brilliant black doctors rather than 50 black doctors of which 10 are great and half are really awful. Although I intensely dislike the practice of affirmative action I understand the need for a system that creates a sense of balance and that corrects societal disparities in order to social order by creating a society where we have diversity in all areas and everyone feels like they have an equal opportunity or at least that they will not be held back by things that shouldn't matter like the color of their skin or their gender. Sport is a very different situation. There is an easily measurable outcome and by their nature they are pure competition. If you have the talent no one will discriminate against you because you are the wrong color, sex, or age. There is no reason to create an artificial method to level the playing field because its already level in the only way that really matters.
The important feature of my analogy is that he thinks there should be legal action taken to ensure that the elderly are equally represented in the Olympics. As I said, he can certainly try, and there's nothing (I'm assuming) in the rulebook that says elderly aren't allowed to compete. But he's going beyond that to saying certain actions should be taken to ENSURE that the right # of elderly compete. SO Macgyver: why do we have laws regarding affirmative action? Shouldn't everyone just be allowed to [blank] based on merit?You pal does not understand that the Olympics are about superior physical ability, not equality or even youth. It just happens that we are only able to compete physically at that level within our younger age range. And then there is talent, a superior drive and persistence, and the money to be able to devote all your time to training. By his logic, men should be able to sue for the opportunity to give birth.
A friend of mine, call him Joe, thinks the elderly, those above age 75 let's say, are under-represented in the Olympics. He thinks there should be a concerted effort, legal if necessary, to have the elderly better represented in the Olympics in line with their percentage of the population. Do you agree with Joe?At this point in time, why not? Just make sure the EMTs on duty get a good amount of under the table pay for picking up the broken oldsters. Also, their next of kin have to be prohibited from filing wrongful death lawsuits.
You pal does not understand that the Olympics are about superior physical ability, not equality or even youth. It just happens that we are only able to compete physically at that level within our younger age range. And then there is talent, a superior drive and persistence, and the money to be able to devote all your time to training. By his logic, men should be able to sue for the opportunity to give birth.He is also missing that it is about equal access. The old person is not denied access to the games, he can enter whatever qualifying event he wants. He'll lose due to lack of ability, not because someone looks at his age and disqualifies him. Same goes for the person from a minority who gets into med school. The problem is the prejudice inherit in the system of ENTRY into med school. Once in, they will have to compete at the same level as everyone else, and they most certainly will be certified by the same process. If not, then it is no longer a valid certification process. So race based enrollment can't result in bad doctors. It will have some affect on the people who historically have not been discriminated against if this is in fact a zero sum game. But in practice, those people will have more than one option, a second choice school, whereas the historically discriminated group does not have that. So the affect is much smaller at that end.
I think I’m not making my point clear enough. I’m saying, given equal access, etc. there still aren’t enough elderly in the Olympics. My friend thinks there needs to be positive action taken to ensure X% of every Olympic team is the elderly. Similar to for example not enough African Americans in management positions in professional sports. There’s no rule that says “no blacks allowed”. And yet I’m told there aren’t enough A-As or women in top exec positions. If I’m hearing this thread right, no action should be taken to assist minorities into top exec positions since it’s just a matter of “management talent”.
((And in case you’re not getting it, I personally think minorities should have every opportunity to do whatever they want. Merit is the way to go. I’m playing devil’s advocate here.))
I think I'm not making my point clear enough. I'm saying, given equal access, etc. there still aren't enough elderly in the Olympics. My friend thinks there needs to be positive action taken to ensure X% of every Olympic team is the elderly. Similar to for example not enough African Americans in management positions in professional sports. There's no rule that says "no blacks allowed". And yet I'm told there aren't enough A-As or women in top exec positions. If I'm hearing this thread right, no action should be taken to assist minorities into top exec positions since it's just a matter of "management talent". ((And in case you're not getting it, I personally think minorities should have every opportunity to do whatever they want. Merit is the way to go. I'm playing devil's advocate here.))People of any age can try out for the Olympics. Lois
I think I'm not making my point clear enough. I'm saying, given equal access, etc. there still aren't enough elderly in the Olympics. My friend thinks there needs to be positive action taken to ensure X% of every Olympic team is the elderly. Similar to for example not enough African Americans in management positions in professional sports. There's no rule that says "no blacks allowed". And yet I'm told there aren't enough A-As or women in top exec positions. If I'm hearing this thread right, no action should be taken to assist minorities into top exec positions since it's just a matter of "management talent". ((And in case you're not getting it, I personally think minorities should have every opportunity to do whatever they want. Merit is the way to go. I'm playing devil's advocate here.))The problem is the point is not clear. Or the analogy is bad. Age was an arbitrary choice as was the Olympics. Why pick age? If you are making a broader point, then you should say that age, gender, and genealogical makeup of Olympic athletes should match the statistics of the entire world. It's a world event after all. But that's not the goal of the Olympics. And that goal changes. It used to be more about the best overall athlete, now we specialize. This doesn't compare to blacks or women in sports management. I don't know enough about the issues specifically, but this analogy does nothing to inform us or suggest a fix.
I think I'm not making my point clear enough. I'm saying, given equal access, etc. there still aren't enough elderly in the Olympics. My friend thinks there needs to be positive action taken to ensure X% of every Olympic team is the elderly. Similar to for example not enough African Americans in management positions in professional sports. There's no rule that says "no blacks allowed". And yet I'm told there aren't enough A-As or women in top exec positions. If I'm hearing this thread right, no action should be taken to assist minorities into top exec positions since it's just a matter of "management talent". ((And in case you're not getting it, I personally think minorities should have every opportunity to do whatever they want. Merit is the way to go. I'm playing devil's advocate here.))The problem is the point is not clear. Or the analogy is bad. Age was an arbitrary choice as was the Olympics. Why pick age? If you are making a broader point, then you should say that age, gender, and genealogical makeup of Olympic athletes should match the statistics of the entire world. It's a world event after all. But that's not the goal of the Olympics. And that goal changes. It used to be more about the best overall athlete, now we specialize. This doesn't compare to blacks or women in sports management. I don't know enough about the issues specifically, but this analogy does nothing to inform us or suggest a fix.I think it does suggest a fix...do away with programs that artificially promote equality. Not everything in life is equal. Instead, we should focus on recognizing individuals talents and helping them foster those talents if they desire (i.e. we shouldn't force someone who's naturally muscular to become a weightlifter - choice trumps all). We should also focus on recognizing the differences AND fostering the attitude that differences aren't bad, don't create better or lesser individuals. Instead what we have is programs that favor one group over another and create resentment.
I think it does suggest a fix...do away with programs that artificially promote equality. Not everything in life is equal. Instead, we should focus on recognizing individuals talents and helping them foster those talents if they desire (i.e. we shouldn't force someone who's naturally muscular to become a weightlifter - choice trumps all). We should also focus on recognizing the differences AND fostering the attitude that differences aren't bad, don't create better or lesser individuals. Instead what we have is programs that favor one group over another and create resentment.I've been off arguing about Monsanto and other less fruitful things and I missed this reply. I don't agree with your statement, "programs that artificially promote equality". I know of no such program. Unless you include programs that correct inequality. I don't think that is artificial. The reality is, we can only control pre-college education so much. There are local school boards, how taxes work, and teachers themselves. It's the old problem of balancing freedom with our higher ideals. But we can put in some corrections at the point of getting to college. The least we can do is give a kid from rural Alabama a chance. That "recognizes individual talents and helps them foster..." as you said. You've talked about old people in the Olympics and black people in sports management and this thing about forcing muscular people to do things. There are no programs for those, no one would go for it. So you need to come some real world examples or better analogies to explain what you think should be changed. As for resentment. From whom? Are you actually considered about Joe the Plumber being mad because a black kid got into college?