Is beheading more humane than long winded chemical and electricity executions?

Humanism
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Hey, are you amusing yourselves without me? Such a mean thing, hiding a free will discussion in the wrong thread… :wink:

People are Causally-Determined to believe in LFW Steve. Belief in LFW is not a learned behavior. Are you saying that a belief in LFW is a learned behavior?
You are creating a false opposition here, VYAZMA. Learned behaviour is just as causally determined as anything else. It seems you have forgotten that everything is determined, so learned behaviour is too.
Everybody judges, everybody “chooses", everybody praises, everybody blames. Everybody!!!!
Yes, of course. And that is independent of the question if we have libertarian free will or not; and even more independent of the question if you believe in libertarian free will or not. Does a determinist not choose a menu in the restaurant? Doesn't the freedom of the determinist end when the waitress says "sorry, whatever you choose, you just get Menu 1". Tell me, VYAZMA, what is the difference between these two people: to the first one you say "You must choose a menu in the restaurant assuming you have LFW."; to the second one you say "You must choose a menu in the restaurant assuming you are totally determined." What will the difference be? The illusion of LFW does not change anything in our daily behaviour. However it can make an ideological change in how we judge the responsibility of other people: the cousin of LFW is ultimate responsibility. This helps us to judge easier and harder over other people, and still sleep well. We don't have to improve the circumstances of these people, in the end, they are guilty for doing what they do anyway, it is their problem, it has nothing to do with me. The believe that we have no free will at all can lead to a similar mindset: it is all determined, so I can't change it. I even can't change myself. Nobody is responsible, so me neither. So I can sleep in peace. CFW however shows how we have free will, not LFW, and that we are still responsible, because the results of my choices matter. We've already seen that in the restaurant. My wishes and beliefs, on which my choices are based, belong to the causal fabric of the universe, so they have effects.
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Hey, are you amusing yourselves without me? Such a mean thing, hiding a free will discussion in the wrong thread... ;-)
:-)
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You are creating a false opposition here, VYAZMA. Learned behaviour is just as causally determined as anything else. It seems you have forgotten that everything is determined, so learned behaviour is too.
I asked Stephen if he thought a belief in LFW is a learned behavior. He seems to treat it as if it can be changed.
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I’m still waiting for Stephen to describe the effects of belief in LFW…
I’m waiting…

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The illusion of LFW does not change anything in our daily behaviour. However it can make an ideological change in how we judge the responsibility of other people: the cousin of LFW is ultimate responsibility. This helps us to judge easier and harder over other people, and still sleep well. We don't have to improve the circumstances of these people, in the end, they are guilty for doing what they do anyway, it is their problem, it has nothing to do with me.
1. I thought you didn't like the word illusion...?!?!? 2. Why did you distinguish between "daily behavior" and "ideological change in how we judge"? 3. Change from what GdB? An ideological change from what? 4. Start leaving out the additional fluff like "cousins" and other bloviations please. Contrary to your little quip above....this ain't amusing to me.
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The computer and dog examples show that but you ignore them. Good dog trainers use lots of praise and little to no blame because they know what works. That’s a clue to where disbelief in LFW can get you.
What makes them Good Dog Trainers? They know what works for a desired result? What if someone bred dogs with lot's of blame and no praise and was pleased with the results? That would also be a good example of what a disbelief in LFW could get you... Why praise the dog? He couldn't have done otherwise.... The blame was just a manifestation of anger or frustration, that is a normal, determined emotion... Seems like another good manifestation of a non-belief in LFW. Or like I've asked you 10 times, can a disbelief(laugh) in LFW only have subjective, positive benefits according to your ideology? You've answered NO before, but all of your analogies, anecdotes and examples keep coming back to your own personal, subjective ideas in what a disbelief in LFW can achieve.
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1. I thought you didn't like the word illusion...?!?!? 2. Why did you distinguish between "daily behavior" and "ideological change in how we judge"? 3. Change from what GdB? An ideological change from what? 4. Start leaving out the additional fluff like "cousins" and other bloviations please. Contrary to your little quip above....this ain't amusing to me.
1. No, I like it when it aims at libertarian free will. You see, you've never understood one word of what I am saying. I said this already dozens of times. 2. Because they are different! If you go to the restaurant and order yourself something, you choose. But in your own experience you cannot distinguish between being determined or choosing freely: simply because there is no difference: you will choose anyway, based on your own preferences. 'Judging' is just something totally different. Your vision on the culpability of somebody else heavily depends on what you think about his responsibility. If you believe in ultimate responsibility then your judgement may fall out much harsher. But without LFW there can be no ultimate responsibility. 3. Your judgement of other people is dependent on your view on free will. So if your view changes, your judgements might change. 4. I did above. OK? Edit: you don't have to be amused. This is a serious topic, and I am wondering why you are so fanatic at this subject, I did explain already a few times why I think it is important. (But of course you forgot...). Maybe you are in prison. :coolgrin:
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You see, you've never understood one word of what I am saying. I said this already dozens of times.
Then why on Earth have you re-entered the discussion? I've told you that myself dozens of times-I've never understood anything your saying. See if you can't narrow down this discussion me and Stephen are having to 2-3 short sentences. Short sentences. That should be all it takes.
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Then why on Earth have you re-entered the discussion? I've told you that myself dozens of times-I've never understood anything your saying. See if you can't narrow down this discussion me and Stephen are having to 2-3 short sentences. Short sentences. That should be all it takes.
OK. Short sentences: Free will means that you are able to do what you want. Free will does not mean that you are able to want what you want. Having free will means that you are responsible for your actions But because your actions are determined you are not ultimate responsible. So judge, but judge not too hard.
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Edit: you don't have to be amused. This is a serious topic, and I am wondering why you are so fanatic at this subject.
Because you and Stephen are injecting, subjective, ideological bents on the matter. That's why! Then after I say this, you both rebut with unintelligible, gobbly-gook that's 10,000 words long and doesn't resolve my assertion.
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2. Why did you distinguish between "daily behavior" and "ideological change in how we judge"? 2. Because they are different!
Because they are different? Then a foolish restaurant menu analogy. How does "ideological change in how we judge" separate itself from "daily behavior"?
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Then why on Earth have you re-entered the discussion? I've told you that myself dozens of times-I've never understood anything your saying. See if you can't narrow down this discussion me and Stephen are having to 2-3 short sentences. Short sentences. That should be all it takes.
OK. Short sentences: Free will means that you are able to do what you want. Free will does not mean that you are able to want what you want. Having free will means that you are responsible for your actions But because your actions are determined you are not ultimate responsible. So judge, but judge not too hard. Well see, you are wrong! This current discussion is about Stephen's subjective ideas on how belief in LFW is an intellectual error with "negative results". My counter to this is that a belief in LFW is an innate concept that is part of our consciousness' framework. Framework. The funniest thing is that Stephen(and you) is using his own belief in LFW to judge the objective results of another's belief in LFW. As if there is Consciousness/Cogency and then after that process- a subjective "belief" in LFW that could somehow be tailored.
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So judge, but judge not too hard.
You see here-this proves my point on your thinking. Again you are using your own belief in LFW to process other's beliefs in LFW. Using Stephen's overly complicated definition-you are assuming that the person can do otherwise! Which as I told Stephen, and now you-that's just the same thing as handing out pamphlets. You are just proselytizing.
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I’m still waiting for Stephen to describe the EFFECTS of a belief in LFW…

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Edit: you don't have to be amused. This is a serious topic, and I am wondering why you are so fanatic at this subject.
Because you and Stephen are injecting, subjective, ideological bents on the matter. That's why! Then after I say this, you both rebut with unintelligible, gobbly-gook that's 10,000 words long and doesn't resolve my assertion. It looks more that you are just stubborn. Compatibilism is a normal respected standpoint under many philosophers. You consistently refuse to understand that the simple definition of CFW 'being able to do what you want' suffices for virtually all aspects of the daily use of 'free will'. It only doesn't serve the funny idea of uncaused free will. And exactly for this 'uncaused free will' we have no empirical criterion.
Because they are different? Then a foolish restaurant menu analogy. How does "ideological change in how we judge" separate itself from "daily behavior"?
Show me why the restaurant menu analogy is foolish. 'Judging' is different because it is done from a third party position. 'Daily behaviour' is you, acting, at this moment, choosing e.g. from the menu card, or to write a posting in this thread or not. If you think of yourself as determined or not does not change anything.
The funniest thing is that Stephen(and you) is using his own belief in LFW to judge the objective results of another's belief in LFW. As if there is Consciousness/Cogency and then after that process- a subjective "belief" in LFW that could somehow be tailored.
I am not using LFW at all. I show it is an empty concept, without any meaning at all, as is 'the present king of the USA'. You can formulate the phrase, but it has no referent. Belief in LFW can only be countered by arguments, by showing that it is a nonsense concept, e.g. by showing that you believing in LFW or not does not change how you choose.
You see here-this proves my point on your thinking. Again you are using your own belief in LFW to process other's beliefs in LFW.
No, I don't. Say, you are discussing a less complicated topic, and the other person convinces you that what you originally thought is not true. Then you changed your opinion based on arguments. Now you tell me what the difference is for you, if you believe in LFW or not. If you do not believe in the power of arguments, then what are you doing here?
Using Stephen's overly complicated definition-you are assuming that the person can do otherwise!
Of course a person could have done otherwise! If he had some other wish or belief, he would have done otherwise. Just look at the definition of CFW again: being able to do what you want. If you would have wanted something else, you would have done something else. If not, then your action was not free.
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I'm still waiting for Stephen to describe the EFFECTS of a belief in LFW...
You certainly are not Vyazma, Ive said over and over. Increases hatred is one effect. The thing is you can test the effect yourself. When you judge based on CHDO remind yourself that circumstances beyond the persons control would have had to be different for them to have done what they should have done. Then see what you find, the thing is this is an empirical matter that you can test for yourself.
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'Judging' is different because it is done from a third party position. 'Daily behaviour' is you, acting, at this moment, choosing e.g. from the menu card, or to write a posting in this thread or not. If you think of yourself as determined or not does not change anything.
What's the third party position? Someone can't judge as part of their daily behavior? You throwing up word salad does not constitute an argument GdB. Explain how judging is a 3rd Party position...
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I'm still waiting for Stephen to describe the EFFECTS of a belief in LFW...
You certainly are not Vyazma, Ive said over and over. Increases hatred is one effect. No no no. Belief in LFW has to have an effect. That isn't an effect those are just emotions. You said believe in LFW has effects. What are the effects? Does it cause a release of hormones? Does it create brain waves? If I asked you how to reduce the effects of belief in LFW, how would you propose to do this? By reducing belief in LFW? How? I asked you this already, pages ago.
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What makes them Good Dog Trainers? They know what works for a desired result? What if someone bred dogs with lot's of blame and no praise and was pleased with the results? That would also be a good example of what a disbelief in LFW could get you... Why praise the dog? He couldn't have done otherwise.... The blame was just a manifestation of anger or frustration, that is a normal, determined emotion... Seems like another good manifestation of a non-belief in LFW. Or like I've asked you 10 times, can a disbelief(laugh) in LFW only have subjective, positive benefits according to your ideology? You've answered NO before, but all of your analogies, anecdotes and examples keep coming back to your own personal, subjective ideas in what a disbelief in LFW can achieve.
Still waiting for you to address this Stephen...
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What's the third party position? Someone can't judge as part of their daily behavior? You throwing up word salad does not constitute an argument GdB. Explain how judging is a 3rd Party position...
In judging, you look at the free will of somebody else, in daily behaviour you don't: you just choose, menu 1 or menu 2. You don't have to look at the free will of anybody, not of the menu card, not of the waiter, even not of yourself, as we have already seen. (If you do not agree with the last part, then show your argument, instead of just stating that it is foolish.) Your faking stupidity is tiresome, VYAZMA. Time you bring arguments.