So Stephen, can you give me an example of someone's behavior who believes they have LFW under your definition?Any behaviour which would be different if the person didn't believe in Libertarian free will. Wanting someone to suffer for what they have done over a long period of time and/or even after death is one example.
That's what it says, I disagree on deductive reasoning but heck maybe I'm wrong not gonna argue over everything.Excellent! I wanna get back on track too. So can you give me an example of someone who might be displaying signs of believing they have LFW according to your definition?
That's what it says, I disagree on deductive reasoning but heck maybe I'm wrong not gonna argue over everything.Excellent! I wanna get back on track too. So can you give me an example of someone who might be displaying signs of believing they have LFW according to your definition? Well you know what I think belief in LFW does so you know my answers. I think it blocks compassion and empathy, increase and lengthens the desire for revenge, increases hatred amongst many many things. So clearly I think if people are displaying those things sometimes it will be due to belief in libertarian free will. Unwillingness to admit mistakes would be another thing. It's a matter for science, it is being studied at the moment.
So Stephen, can you give me an example of someone's behavior who believes they have LFW under your definition?Any behaviour which would be different if the person didn't believe in Libertarian free will. Wanting someone to suffer for what they have done over a long period of time and/or even after death is one example. (Stephen)Look at this definition of libertarian free will from Lois:
To assume free will is to assume that the same mind can independently think outside the factors that control our thoughts actions and somehow, magically, perhaps, override those factors.Note it’s the same as mine.(Stephen) How is your above example concurrent with this cited definition of LFW? I don't get it? Is the person who wants revenge "independently thinking outside the factors that controls our thoughts, actions and somehow overriding those factors"? How is that believing he has LFW?
I am starting another thread because this one is getting unweildy. It starts with definitions of free will as we use the term. The subject line will be FREE WILL FROM THE GROUND UP
Lois
Is the person who wants revenge "independently thinking outside the factors that controls our thoughts, actions and somehow overriding those factors"? How is that believing he has LFW?No.The situation is he is not mindful of the fact that the person would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't. He is also not mindful of the fact that if he himself had been in slightly and appropriately different circumstances he himself would have behaved that badly. It's that which changes how some of us think and feel
Is the person who wants revenge "independently thinking outside the factors that controls our thoughts, actions and somehow overriding those factors"? How is that believing he has LFW?No.The situation is he is not mindful of the fact that the person would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't. He is also not mindful of the fact that if he himself had been in slightly and appropriately different circumstances he himself would have behaved that badly. It's that which changes how some of us think and feel So the person who is not mindful of the fact that the other person would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't- is wrong? Intellectually Incorrect? Can't I just apply the same "mindfulness" to the guy who wants revenge Stephen? Can't we say of the guy who wants revenge that he would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't? Of course we can! In fact I do. Is that wrong? Does this make any sense to you? Does this illustrate the point I was making about you selectively choosing who the universal rules apply to and who they don't apply to?
So the person who is not mindful of the fact that the other person would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't- is wrong? Intellectually Incorrect?It's not an intellectual error not to be mindful. It's an intellectual error to interpret could have done otherwise as people generally do.
Can't we say of the guy who wants revenge that he would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't? Of course we can!Yes we can. But what we are interested in is the effect of belief in libertarian free will. So what would be the case if he were in those slightly different circumstances. What would be the case if he didn't believe in libertarian free will and reflected on that. If that would reduce his desire for revenge, over time (not in the heat of the moment) then I'm right.
In fact I do. Is that wrong?Well try understanding what the free will illusion is, then try being mindful of the correct interpretation of could have done otherwise and what follows. And then see if it alters how you think and feel. Don't just pointlessly argue.
Does this illustrate the point I was making about you selectively choosing who the universal rules apply to and who they don't apply to?You have no point, this has nothing to do with the influence belief in LFW has and there is no selective choosing.
You're right about what? How do you get someone to stop "believing" in LFW? I asked you that three pages ago? I'm not that interested in the effects Stephen-but they are obvious in this case. We can see the fact that "belief" in LFW causes people to sometimes seek revenge, justice, or punishment-among many other millions of things. So what's the big deal? You already agreed that we can say of the guy who wants revenge that he would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't? So it's not his fault that he wants revenge!! Pretty Simple according to your definition of LFW.Vyazma-Can't we say of the guy who wants revenge that he would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't?Yes we can. But what we are interested in is the effect of belief in libertarian free will. So what would be the case if he were in those slightly different circumstances. What would be the case if he didn't believe in libertarian free will and reflected on that. If that would reduce his desire for revenge, over time (not in the heat of the moment) then I'm right.
You're right about what? How do you get someone to stop "believing" in LFW? I asked you that three pages ago? I'm not that interested in the effects Stephen-but they are obvious in this case. We can see the fact that "belief" in LFW causes people to sometimes seek revenge, justice, or punishment-among many other millions of things. So what's the big deal? You already agreed that we can say of the guy who wants revenge that he would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't? So it's not his fault that he wants revenge!! Pretty Simple according to your definition of LFW. Thisnis how I see it. The fact that someone wants revenge is also determined. What we think we want is determined by factors we are unconsious of. What we believe has no bearing on our actions just as what we consciously think has no bearing on our actions--even though our conscious minds can be convinced that it does. All conscious thoughts or beliefs do is affect the way we assess our actions, not the actions themselves--and our conscious minds are very easily fooled. . Our unconscious determining factors make us act or not act. We may well feel the conscious desire for revenge but we won't act on those feelings unless our determining factors make us do it. Think of watching a movie where all of what happens on the screen has already been determined. We watch the movie and feel emotions as a result. We may feel angry, sad, frustrated, compassionate at what happens on screen but we know there is nothing we can do about it. It's similar with our own actions. Our determining factors have written, produced and directed what action is going to take place. The fact that we can consciously experience what is taking place does not give us the ability to rewrite the script or redirect the movie. The difference is that we all know consciously that we can't change a movie but we don't always accept consciously that we can't change our determined actions. What we do is consciously justify what our actions were, which makes us think we were consciously in control of our actions all along. And we do all this in a split second. LoisVyazma-Can't we say of the guy who wants revenge that he would have had to be in slightly different circumstances to have done what he should have done and was merely unfortunate that he wasn't?Yes we can. But what we are interested in is the effect of belief in libertarian free will. So what would be the case if he were in those slightly different circumstances. What would be the case if he didn't believe in libertarian free will and reflected on that. If that would reduce his desire for revenge, over time (not in the heat of the moment) then I'm right.
You're right about what?About the benefits of disbelief in LFW
How do you get someone to stop "believing" in LFW? I asked you that three pages ago?And I'm sure I've told you. It's like getting someone to stop believing in anything. You persuade with arguments and show them the benefits. In this case it's particularly about correcting a mistake over could have done otherwise.
I'm not that interested in the effects Stephen-but they are obvious in this case.Well why are you arguing over them then. My whole point is the effects.
So what's the big deal?That it causes suffering of course.
So it's not his fault that he wants revenge!! Pretty Simple according to your definition of LFW.Which has nothing to do with it. It's like me saying we'd be better off if people didn't believe in witches and then you arguing it's not their fault that they believe in witches. It's just irrelevant. Everything you are saying is either some mistake or just has nothing to do with the subject I'm talking about. And you even say you have little interest in the effects. I just don't understand why you are posting.
What we believe has no bearing on our actions.That's a pretty crazy idea, might just be brilliant I suppose. So it has no bearing on your actions whether you believe in Homeopathy or not? Anyhow this has nothing to do with Free will as you defined.
StephenLawrenceIt has nothing to do with it? Just as you would like to "counsel" the guy who wants revenge about his "beliefs" in LFW, I'm counseling you about your belief in LFW! The guy is Determined, Causally to want revenge. And you chastise him, for something he has no control over-according to your own definition! You know nothing of Determinism-Causallity, or LFW Stephen. You're just using this as a platform to proselytize about giving criminals a break as far as I can see.... Like I have said, you have clogged the Forum up for years on this issue, while others have tried to have in depth conversations about the Universal ideas behind these concepts. By the way your "witch" analogy is pathetic. I'm serious.Vyazma-So it's not his fault that he wants revenge!! Pretty Simple according to your definition of LFW.Which has nothing to do with it. It's like me saying we'd be better off if people didn't believe in witches and then you arguing it's not their fault that they believe in witches. It's just irrelevant.
You don't like what Stephen Lawrence has to say because you disagree with it, not because it's wrong. If you think Stephen (and I, for that matter) have "clogged up" the Forum on the issue of free will and determinism, then you have also clogged it up by presenting your arguments that free will exists. Whether anyone is "clogging up" the forum depends on whose ox is being gored, doesn't it? Nobody is forced to read any thread, so nothing is "clogged up." LoisStephenLawrenceIt has nothing to do with it? Just as you would like to "counsel" the guy who wants revenge about his "beliefs" in LFW, I'm counseling you about your belief in LFW! The guy is Determined, Causally to want revenge. And you chastise him, for something he has no control over-according to your own definition! You know nothing of Determinism-Causallity, or LFW Stephen. You're just using this as a platform to proselytize about giving criminals a break as far as I can see.... Like I have said, you have clogged the Forum up for years on this issue, while others have tried to have in depth conversations about the Universal ideas behind these concepts. By the way your "witch" analogy is pathetic. I'm serious.Vyazma-So it's not his fault that he wants revenge!! Pretty Simple according to your definition of LFW.Which has nothing to do with it. It's like me saying we'd be better off if people didn't believe in witches and then you arguing it's not their fault that they believe in witches. It's just irrelevant.
It has nothing to do with it?No because it's just a matter of the effect belief in LFW is having.
Just as you would like to "counsel" the guy who wants revenge about his "beliefs" in LFW,I didn't say I'd like to counsel the guy.
I'm counseling you about your belief in LFW!I don't believe in LFW
The guy is Determined, Causally to want revenge.Of course.
And you chastise him, for something he has no control over-according to your own definition!I don't. I say his desire for revenge would last for less time and be weaker if he didn't believe in LFW
You're just using this as a platform to proselytize about giving criminals a break as far as I can see....Nope, I think if people generally didn't believe in LFW people would treat each other better, we would live in a fairer society and there would be less criminals.
By the way your "witch" analogy is pathetic. I'm serious.What you do is rant, ridicule and abuse. What you don't do is come up with any reasoned arguments or even address mine. The witch analogy or any analogy with any other erroneous belief is spot on. We are concerned about erroneous beliefs when we think they have harmful effects and that's the point of arguing against them. There is no sense in treating this one any differently.
Nope, I think if people generally didn't believe in LFW people would treat each other better, we would live in a fairer society and there would be less criminals.Do you think everyone believes they have LFW? Or just most people? Do you think that there are people who are doing good deeds who believe their good deeds are based on their LFW? In other words, they believe they are choosing to do good deeds? Should these people be discouraged from thinking their good deeds are based on LFW?
So what about the millions of people who believe they are doing good deeds according to their LFW? What about the millions of people who recognize(and encourage, and reward) good deeds, benevolent actions etc as deeds, actions and choices based on LFW? Should all of these people be discouraged from thinking that people's good actions and charities are based upon LFW? According to you this is an "Intellectual Error"...right?And you chastise him, for something he has no control over(wanting revenge)-according to your own definition!I don't. I say his desire for revenge would last for less time and be weaker if he didn't believe in LFW.
So we explain the benefits to people. We can cite buddhism as an example and their ideas of "dependent arising" and how it's worked for buddhists over centuries.(these are the buddhists I assume that live in isolation and poverty most of their lives, the monks...). Otherwise, history is replete with "garden variety" buddhists judging, killing, executing, warring, fighting, getting wealthy etc... It's kind of like christianity...christians have the commandment: Thou shall not kill. There's been plenty of killing by christians over the centuries. The kind of killing that's involved with judging. Finally like I said, I wouldn't think a "belief" in LFW is doing any harm really. I already explained that we are hard wired through evolution to "believe" we have LFW. If we slowly evolved this feature from a beginning of single cell organisms(in a completely causal, determined World) then there must have been a good reason for it. Generally harmful traits are discarded slowly through evolution.(harmful traits being loosely defined as genes that are counter productive to reproduction and the survival of evolving DNA itself) Does this make any sense to you?VYAZMA-How would you get everyone to stop thinking they had LFW Steve?Stephen- I did tell you. Part of it is explaining the benefits, because people do view not having libertarian free will as negative. but it’s been a common idea over many centuries, especially in Buddhism, that believing in dependent arising as they call it increases empathy and compassion and reduces hatred. anyhow I only have my reasons for believing that and anecdotal evidence as you rightly say so it’s a matter for science but you have no good reason to think belief in libertarian free will is doing no harm.
Do you think everyone believes they have LFW? Or just most people?Most people.
Do you think that there are people who are doing good deeds who believe their good deeds are based on their LFW? In other words, they believe they are choosing to do good deeds?They are choosing to do good deeds.
Should these people be discouraged from thinking their good deeds are based on LFW?They should think they are choosing to do good deeds.
So what about the millions of people who believe they are doing good deeds according to their LFW?They are choosing to do good deeds. If you're asking what about the millions of people who think they could do otherwise without circumstances beyond their control being different there is no harm in telling them that isn't true.
What about the millions of people who recognize(and encourage, and reward) good deeds, benevolent actions etc as deeds, actions and choices based on LFW?If there are good reasons to continue doing that belief in LFW is not needed.
Should all of these people be discouraged from thinking that people's good actions and charities are based upon LFW?Sure, it's not true, why not discourage it?
According to you this is an "Intellectual Error"...right?LFW is an intellectual error, of course what else?