If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One?

Religion and Secularism
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Pretty interesting interview today.

If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One? April 07, 2014 http://www.npr.org/2014/04/07/300246095/if-jesus-never-called-himself-god-how-did-he-become-one When Bart Ehrman was a young Evangelical Christian, he wanted to know how God became a man, but now, as an agnostic and historian of early Christianity, he wants to know how a man became God. When and why did Jesus' followers start saying "Jesus as God" and what did they mean by that? His new book is called How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee. "In this book I actually do not take a stand on either the question of whether Jesus was God, or whether he was actually raised from the dead," Ehrman tells Fresh Air's Terry Gross. "I leave open both questions because those are theological questions based on religious beliefs and I'm writing the book as a historian." Ehrman is the author of several books about early Christianity, including Misquoting Jesus and Jesus Interrupted.
Yes we create God's in our own image to manage others… {that's my take, not his words}
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Oh, that Bart Ehrman, at it again! I read his “Misquoting Jesus” book about the very human process that created, refined for greater benevolence, and appended to the gospels of Jesus Christ, highlighting their credibility problems. A good one.
I heard that interview about his latest “How Jesus Became God” book, it sounds pretty good, highlighting that refinement process that loyal Christian scribes did to the gospels and to the Christian culture, enhancing His benevolence and godliness. :slight_smile: Lovely how the variety of stories tend to agree with each other as they are more refined, the church calls that “harmonization”. :slight_smile:
What does everyone on this forum think, was Jesus exalted later in his life, or was he always a god and only became a man temporarily? I don’t think he existed, at all, I think that the apostles made him up. Christianity was just a rarity in a pagan occupied Jewish land, until Emperor Constantine’s mother became Christian, which changed everything.

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Proving Jesus’s existence is not well established however, what he is reported to have said was not written by him and was written starting about 40 years after his death by a couple of his followers, mainly the apostle Paul. What he may or may not of said is not credible for this fact. The deification of Jesus seems to have taken place when Rome embraced Christianity through Constantine. The idea of a person half human and half god was common in Ancient Greek mythology and it is replicated in the deification of Jesus. This is the point where Christianity embraced fantastic claims and promises that had proven successful for other religions. Without this development, Christianity might not exist today, certainly not se we know it.

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Oh, that Bart Ehrman, at it again! I read his "Misquoting Jesus" book about the very human process that created, refined for greater benevolence, and appended to the gospels of Jesus Christ, highlighting their credibility problems. A good one. I heard that interview about his latest "How Jesus Became God" book, it sounds pretty good, highlighting that refinement process that loyal Christian scribes did to the gospels and to the Christian culture, enhancing His benevolence and godliness. :) Lovely how the variety of stories tend to agree with each other as they are more refined, the church calls that "harmonization". :) What does everyone on this forum think, was Jesus exalted later in his life, or was he always a god and only became a man temporarily? I don't think he existed, at all, I think that the apostles made him up. Christianity was just a rarity in a pagan occupied Jewish land, until Emperor Constantine's mother became Christian, which changed everything.
The time was right for an apocalyptic figure and they found one. He was a man who had a following and an interesting philosophy. It was blown out of all proportion and they made a god out of him, because an ordinary man could not carry the weight of their expectations and their claims, There is always more than meets the eye in a situation like this. Philosophy, psychology, religious myth and politics came together at just the right moment. People needed something new and dramatic. If it hadn't been this person named Jesus, it would have been someone else, and the same kinds of exaggerations would have ensued. Someone else would have been called a god on earth. Any group can get a lot more traction out of a god or godlike figure than from an ordinary man. It wasn't one thing that caused this to happen, it was hundreds of factors all working together. Jesus was in the right place at the right time. It was inevitable. Lois
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I think this article might help. It talks about “Is Jesus God”. It explains exactly how Jesus taught his disciples how he was God.

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@Big Mane

The attached videos are from renowned Ivy League Biblical Scholars. The bible was Not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. It was written by unknown authors almost 50 yrs after Jesus’ death. Moses was not even a real person. The devil is Not anymore real than the Boogeyman. 666 does Not stand for Satan, it represents Caesar Nero. Adams first wife was Not Eve, it was Lilith.

 

 

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It can be argued that Jesus did call himself God when he said, “I and my father are one”.

Of course, that’s assuming the the books of the New Testament contain actual quotes of Jesus, and that Jesus really existed and was not a myth altogether. There is ample evidence to show that the writers of the New Testament shared some source reference material on which their own works were based, different authors creating word-for-word (or nearly so) the exact same text in parts. Perhaps that source material had actual quotes, perhaps it did not.

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This is what happens when timelines are not used. There are two main pathways for GOD.

The first pathway is – GOD is just another word meaning ‘Knowledge”.

The second is – GOD is a word meaning “Deity”.

History has given us Jesus the “man” and Jesus the “Deity” – two different pathways.

Jesus the man was a Hellenistic Pharisee. The Pharisees were a social movement and a school of thought in the Holy Land of Hellenistic law-making and Greek-style legislative bodies. They were the rich and powerful and controlled the temple politically. They were deists whose belief in the existence of a supreme being was recognized as a creator who does not intervene in the universe. Who may have existed in the beginning but then went away never to return. Or one could say, more of an atheist who uses the creator for political reasons to control the masses. As far as Jesus’ views of god. Go to Jesus’ writings. God is knowledge and is in all of us. Really simple. The biggest god of all time was Ra. Ra is just another word for “knowledge”. Jesus and the Hellenistic viewpoints were in line with the thinking of the area and time, except for the Sadducees who were the keepers of the temple. The Sadducees were believers of god as a deity.

The Christian pathway is a belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.

If the data seem confusing. Just remember Jesus was a politician who was able to deal with many religions and beliefs of the people.

Religion at the time of Jesus and from the beginning of history. Even going into pre-history was about civilization, not about deities. At the time of Jesus, to the elite, religion was still all about civilizations and rules of laws.

Jesus is in many religions. One has to ask “Why”. The answer is that most religions were about civilizations, not deities. The better the morals of the people, the better the civilization. Jesus taught morals and wisdom. That why Jesus ended up in so many religions. And some religions made Jesus a deity. Which is great for the civilization. Civilizations without morals do not last very long. It is that simple.

Rome and all the other nations goals were to become like and have the controls over the people like the great Egyptian empire had. Rome made Christianity the main religion. And Christianity made Jesus a god. At the time, the gnostic Jesus of knowledge was a much bigger religion. But was shut down by Rome.

Note, to understand Jesus the man. You have to go outside of the bible. If you are reading Bart Ehrman, you can’t go wrong. His works will read differently to people. Due to the fact that everyone is on their own level of belief and misunderstanding of the subject. Scholars like Mr. Ehrman are two to three generations ahead of what is accepted by the public. Thus, they write many books that are spoon feeding what is logical to the public as the public trends up and down on the subject matter.

The goal markers as to how fast the public is moving are the ark – voice of god. And the bone boxes of Jesus’ family and when the NT books were written. Thus, you can expect to have the same exact debate about the same issues five, ten and maybe twenty years from now. If you want to look at religion and history in a more realistic view. Just use timelines, everything evolves.

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back at the usual story, huh Mike?

Just before you left to go take care of your health, I posted this about self-domestication. It’s the correct use of the terms and history that you’ve been trying to sell here for years.

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Getting old. I missed a main point on the subject matter. If Jesus Never Called Himself God, How Did He Become One? The answer is – Jesus did call himself god. He also called you and me god. God is knowledge and everyone makes up god. Jesus taught wisdom. Which is how to properly use the knowledge (god) for the good of civilization.

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Thanks for the link Lausten. Will review tonight. You know my thinking on domestication. That Christian religion has wiped out the whole Age of Domestication from our history.

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Mike Yohe said,

History has given us Jesus the “man” and Jesus the “Deity” – two different pathways.


IMO, history gave us a man named Jesus and man gave us the deity Jesus Christ. Take man away and all gods will cease to exist.

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Mike Yohe said,

The first pathway is – GOD is just another word meaning ‘Knowledge”.


That is a false assumption. The first God was “invented” from ignorance, not knowledge or wisdom. The concept of God was invented by early hominids, even before “homo sapiens” evolved from a common ancestor.

"Homo sapiens" is the only extant human species. The name is Latin for "wise man" and was introduced in 1758 by Carl Linnaeus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens

Early man was not wise at all. They were completely ignorant of nature and natural law. The number of extinct gods speaks of the “ignorance”, not the “wisdom” of early man.

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Write4U. It is hard to respond. You are all over the spectrum of time.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

When and who created 90% of the protein we consume today?

When and who created the money system that came from pre-history and was last used in the 1960’s?

When and who created the spoken language?

What was the name of the people who created the biblical man 12,800 years ago?

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Mike Yohe said,

When and who created 90% of the protein we consume today?


Specifically which proteins are you talking about? The word protein was invented in 1838. Protein itself has been consumed since time immemorial.

pro·tein, noun 1.any of a class of nitrogenous organic compounds that consist of large molecules composed of one or more long chains of amino acids and are an essential part of all living organisms, especially as structural components of body tissues such as muscle, hair, collagen, etc., and as enzymes and antibodies:"a protein found in wheat"
When and who created the money system that came from pre-history and was last used in the 1960’s?
Specifically which money system are you talking about? Means of exchange has been known since before written history. The double entry bookkeeping system was invented by a monk.
13th century Invented in the 13th century by Italian merchants, double entry bookkeeping is used worldwide. The principles were first set out in writing by the Italian monk Luca Pacioli (1445-1517) in the 1494 book ‘Summa de Arithmetica.’ For further information on the Double entry bookkeeping system see the Wikipedia definition.

When and who created the spoken language?


Specifically, what spoken language are you talking about? It is estimated the first spoken language was about 100,000 years ago.

Chemical words were used by bacteria perhaps 4 billion years ago. See “quorum sensing”.

What was the name of the people who created the biblical man 12,800 years ago?
Specifically what biblical man are you talking about? Was there a biblical man before the bible was written? There were a bunch of man invented gods long before the bible was written.

Your problem Mike is that you want to start in the middle, with biblical history as a starting point. That’s not how it works.

Natural History starts with the appearance of Elements, some 14 billion years ago. Polymers were created thereafter and that process is continuing today.

Earth alone has experienced some 2 trillion, quadrillion, quadrillion, quadrillion chemical reactions since its formation.

Universal chemistry is incalculable.

 

 

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I believe that there were some dinosaurs that were highly social, i.e., raised and nurtured their young over a prolonged period of upbringing. If that is the case, then there were probably dinosaurs who had verbal behavior, at least on a relatively simple level (as is the case with social species that are alive today).

So maybe some dinosaurs came up with the 1st vocal language.

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Write4U, I am not trying to use trick questions. The number one item for successful civilizations is high protein levels. Proteins - walk into a supermarket and remove all the protein that are not natural. That was created. For example, the chicken was a Vietnam tree bird before it domesticated and created into a chicken. Then just like the domesticated olive it changed civilizations by providing higher levels of proteins. You will have to remove about 90% of the items from the supermarket. Wheat was domesticated so long ago that the wild grass it came from cannot be found in its DNA today.

I see your point on the appearance of Elements. The stories passed down in the oldest works says that man has always wanted to know how the universe was created but realized that mankind may never know.

I set perimeters on pre-history to stay inside of. The starting datum points are the Mt. Toba human bottle neck 74K. The Age of Domestication 40K. And the creation of biblical man 12.8k.

The biblical man is Red Earth Man or Adam. And you can follow Adams everywhere that mankind has traveled by the Red Earth burials or Ochre burials.

What is mankind’s greatest accomplishment? It is the creation of civilization. And it seems to me that our founding fathers knew more about civilizations 200 years ago than we understand today. I am not trying to bring new ideas to the table, just bringing up old and forgotten ideas that should never be forgotten.

Who created the biblical man? The upper god midwifes. The upper people of knowledge were not physical built for farming. Thus, they were having terrible back pain. Genetic selection that worked so well with the other animals was used to create the biblical man. No white skinned people have been found before this time. The upper and lower gods used sky burials and Earth Man used ochre burials.

We can peel back a hundred layers. But this is the general idea. And the stories of how this all happened and came about talks about high levels of laws and organization. There is no talk of religion or deities at this point on the timeline. But the first known talk of the spirit was in the story of Adam.

 

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So maybe some dinosaurs came up with the 1st vocal language.

Birds and whales are from dinosaurs and they are vocal. I wouldn’t bet against you.

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You haven’t changed a bit Mike. Which is a nice way of saying you still don’t make any sense.

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Mike Yohe said,

What is mankind’s greatest accomplishment? It is the creation of civilization. And it seems to me that our founding fathers knew more about civilizations 200 years ago than we understand today. I am not trying to bring new ideas to the table, just bringing up old and forgotten ideas that should never be forgotten.


The ants and termites had very sophisticated civilizations some 300 million years ago. These species have “colonized” the earth and in many cases provided examples of social order, later followed by humans.

Evolution is the foundation for emergent complex patterns and behaviors. All extant life and social behavior is a result of evolutionary adaption to the environment.

Termites,

Termites are among the most successful groups of insects on Earth, colonising most landmasses except Antarctica. Their colonies range in size from a few hundred individuals to enormous societies with several million individuals. Termite queens have the longest lifespan of any insect in the world, with some queens reportedly living up to 30 to 50 years. Unlike ants, which undergo a complete metamorphosis, each individual termite goes through an incomplete metamorphosis that proceeds through egg, nymph, and adult stages. Colonies are described as superorganisms because the termites form part of a self-regulating entity: the colony itself.[3]

The development of autonomous robots capable of constructing intricate structures without human assistance has been inspired by the complex mounds that termites build.[229] These robots work independently and can move by themselves on a tracked grid, capable of climbing and lifting up bricks. Such robots may be useful for future projects on Mars, or for building levees to prevent flooding.[230]

Termites use sophisticated means to control the temperatures of their mounds. As discussed above, the shape and orientation of the mounds of the Australian compass termite stabilises their internal temperatures during the day. As the towers heat up, the solar chimney effect (stack effect) creates an updraft of air within the mound.[231] Wind blowing across the tops of the towers enhances the circulation of air through the mounds, which also include side vents in their construction. The solar chimney effect has been in use for centuries in the Middle East and Near East for passive cooling, as well as in Europe by the Romans.[232] It is only relatively recently, however, that climate responsive construction techniques have become incorporated into modern architecture.


That’s just a taste of social hive dwellers. Then there are the ants and last but mot least the honey-bee which (with some other pollinators) are responsible for about 70% of all food production on earth.

Each of these species have evolved extremely ordered and successful societies, including sophisticated chemical communication skills.