I think I might be over my issue

General Discussion
202

Yeah that sounds about right. I thought the energy stuff was weird, asking me where I felt these emotions. I feel them in my head and chest, though I’m guessing he was basing that off that whole heart and mind thing they go for. But to me heart might as well be mind since the brain controls that.

All I know is there is a lot of research going into this stuff with different theories. They talk that beliefs and thoughts make us feel but my question is HOW. I know they do affect us but there is more to it than that.

Though this from him raised my eyebrow:

“There are things that interact with our nervous system will make us feel things.
Our nervous system and brain are part of the process of creating and feeling emotions.
And I emphasize “part of””

I’m not sure if there is anything other than the nervous system and brain behind this. I mean we know mucking with the brain can affect thoughts and feelings and beliefs, Phinaes Gage is one case that comes up where the guy did a 180 after that spike through the head.

The frustrating thing about this thought is that I can’t really prove my side without unethical experiments. It’s not like an ethics board would green light this.

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I doubt that guy knows either. He accomplished what he wanted, to get you curious, so you would come back and talk to him some more. I hope you aren’t paying him. He will keep throwing out these teasers, saying “emphasis on part of”, or similar phrases, so you’ll come back to find out what else he has to say.

He doesn’t have anything. He might believe he does, but what else could produce feelings and thoughts in you other than what is in you? “You”, your body, brain, nervous system, heart, all of you, reacts to external stimuli, if you didn’t pull your hand off of a hot stove you would burn that hand, that reaction is you.

Some reactions, like fear of a wild bear charging at us, we call instinct. Reactions like being happy for a summer day are more complex, i would call that emotion. A neuroscientist might have more to say about it, and they have ethical ways of getting evidence. I don’t need to know about that to be happy. It’s interesting, I can think about it if I want, but I can enjoy the day without thinking about it.

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Don’t forget about your guts.

Your interactions with other people and things and circumstance, are also part of the equation, worth keeping in mind.
You know those feedback lops. Smile at a person and they are likely to smile back, give a person a ration of … and they’re likely to turn it right back on you, and so on. One thing leads to another and all that.

Good luck.

205

I’m not entirely convinced by that, there’s a lot of maybes in it for me.

But that’s still our brains and nervous system.

At least it’s not something nonsense like “emotions are stored in the body” even though they aren’t and it’s the brain. The only reason you feel anything is because you have a brain. Though his response to me after that is “you can’t feel anything without a body”, to which I just stood silent. It was one of the dumbest things I’ve heard.

IT’s not just him but others there too. They seem to hide behind the uncertainty of science like a shield and use it to justify other nonsense like panpsychism or discredited theories:

“Exactly! We meet at the place where we can find a common language and common understanding. That’s communication. As far as your other point, I live all day long in a world where most of what you will find taught on this sight is dismissed and/or attacked. Your criticisms are extremely common ones. I’ve not heard you make an objection that is not familiar. I have studied science, philosophy and theology. Each has its own set of biases and prejudices. Your biases and prejudices are the usual scientifically based ones. You seem however to be under the impression that the popular science positions you advocate are settled and undisputed. In the words of Neil Degrasse Tyson “the real danger is knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not enough to know you might be wrong.” You will find, if you talk to working PHD level scientists, that they are very hesitant to claim ANYTHING as being settled. The general estimated age of the universe, the emergence of life, the beginning of civilization, and such are reasonably solid, but even there we keep finding ancient megalithic structures that throw the time line back another 10,000 years from time to time. The more we know, the more we find out there is to learn. That is what makes science so cool: It is NOT settled and it is all about continuing to learn and revise and change what we “know” in light of new discoveries. Polyvagal theory is one of those amazing expanding areas that is still new science. Panpsychism and pan-experientialism are theories that are beginning to build new understanding and new fields of inquiry that blow the doors off some old assumptions. It is an exciting time to be alive. Let’s hope we survive our self destructive impulses long enough to keep the trajectory going. Who knows, this may be similar to where Ur of the Chaldeans was at 5000 years ago?”

206

If you believe that you cannot feel emotion, what do you expect emotional feelings to be like?
It seems that you are experiencing a sort of frustration from this perceived “lack of feeling”, and AFAIK, frustration is an emotional feeling.

frus·tra·tion, noun

the feeling of being upset or annoyed, especially because of inability to change or achieve something.
“I sometimes feel like screaming with frustration”

In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition, related to anger, annoyance and disappointment. Frustration arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of an individual’s will or goal and is likely to increase when a will or goal is denied or blocked.
(Frustration - Wikipedia)

That’s the spirit!

207

No you misunderstand, this guy doesn’t understand science. He uses the fact that there is no certainty as a shield and excuse to push theories that are either fringe or pseudoscience.

I’ve met too many folks like that.

208

This is the response I got from him when I was hard on some dude who said he communicated with “entities” at some pyramid in mexico:

"What are we debating? Hmm. Then first we should answer the question, What does it mean to exist?

We might find that we have different assumptions so lets get them clear before we debate.

Then we can answer, Does a thought exist?

        Does a dream exist? 

   Do ideas exist?

Does the the voice in my head (or voices) speaking thoughts exist?

and if it does exist, what is it made of?

Then could these things exist out beyond me?

So lets start here, and then discuss instead of throw around right/wrong concepts when we have not yet defined the terms.

This is how we will learn to debate and investigate together.

and if we can’t do this then I will take a way the sandbox. "

Like I said, they hide behind uncertainty like a shield, this isn’t genuine inquiry or curiosity it’s just obfuscation.

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I know that. I’m not tracking individuals. I usually skip the long texts you copy. I honestly do not care what any of them say. I have read enough of them to know they are not presenting a coherent message.

210

Yeah you’re right, I keep thinking I can convince them but when the arguments are just Appeal to Ignorance I think I have my answer.

1 Like
211

Yes, that voice is Yourself, the emergent product(s) of your brain and neural network, based on “stored memories” (knowledge) .

It’s interesting to note that I am just as curious about that as you, but from a different perspective.
I am trying to find out what allows us think at all.
AFAIK, this sensory ability already begins at the cellular level.

Bacteria “talk” to each other via “quorum sensing”, a purely chemical language of molecular “words”. But this is the language mentioned by CC of the symbiotic bacterial world that actually is keeping us alive to begin with!!

For some existential perspective on the meaning of life, without our symbiotic organic friends we would die! They are the ones keeping us alive…! :thinking:

Check this out. It is a very entertaining and informative lecture .
Bassler describes the role bacteria play in human life and aggregate communication schemes that help us maintain homeostasis, a brain function.

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According to them it’s something beyond the nervous system but to me that would be denying all the evidence to the contrary.

Also I just learned that some folks don’t have that inner voice, it’s around 2-5% of the population.

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There is! It’s non-neural cellular communication, but that is not beyond any physical (cellular) interaction.
The cytoplasm and cytoskeleton of cells contain non-neural microtubules that allow intracellular communication as well as intercellular communication between cells.

IMO, those unfounded assumptions of metaphysical communication are from ignorance of this new science. Cellular communication is just now becoming understood.

Example: “slime mold”, a neuronless, multi nucleic single-celled organism is able to solve a maze to find food. It does this by “subtraction” a mathematical function.

Microtubules: Evolving roles and critical cellular interactions

Short abstract

Microtubules are cytoskeletal elements known as drivers of directed cell migration, vesicle and organelle trafficking, and mitosis. In this review, we discuss new research in the lens that has shed light into further roles for stable microtubules in the process of development and morphogenesis.

In the lens, as well as other systems, distinct roles for characteristically dynamic microtubules and stabilized populations are coming to light. Understanding the mechanisms of microtubule stabilization and the associated microtubule post-translational modifications is an evolving field of study.

Appropriate cellular homeostasis relies on not only one cytoskeletal element, but also rather an interaction between cytoskeletal proteins as well as other cellular regulators. Microtubules are key integrators with actin and intermediate filaments, as well as cell–cell junctional proteins and other cellular regulators including myosin and RhoGTPases to maintain this balance.

Impact statement

The role of microtubules in cellular functioning is constantly expanding. In this review, we examine new and exciting fields of discovery for microtubule’s involvement in morphogenesis, highlight our evolving understanding of differential roles for stabilized versus dynamic subpopulations, and further understanding of microtubules as a cellular integrator.

p.s. check this out.

There is research suggesting that slime mold may be sensitive to the presence of dark matter, but I haven’t had time to check that out.

215

That’s sort of my thought, that nothing they are talking about is really metaphysical or wooey like the consciousness stuff.

TBH though I’m still unclear on consciousness. It does affect the brain but it is also affected by the brain. Like when I was put under anesthesia and lost consciousness.

I don’t think a lot of people know what that means. There is no darkness, no dream, NADA. You just blink and it’s over.

216

You are getting it!!!
I really recommend this video by Anil Seth.
The lecture is easy to follow but the implications how the brain becomes conscious is clear.

217

No, what I’m talking about is interacting with people.
It’s about helping establish a mood.

Some talk about the “vessel of trust” we establish and maintain, or damage, with others.
Like dancing, it’s two beings interacting.

How about recognizing the “other” and the “self” that person possesses.
It’s not all about you, or at least it doesn’t have to be.

Why do you say that?
Have you thought about it?
Everything your brain works with, comes to it through your body,
and everything your brain produces, is focus on maintaining its body and acting in the world.
Or?
Why simply dismiss it out right?
Because it’s seems too obvious?
Or, because you reject the notion?

I believe we can’t realistically divide those,
they are the ultimate in interwoven and interactive, constant feedback loops running organism, without which you truly wouldn’t exist.

This isn’t stuff that requires faith, it’s the stuff of libraries full of solid medical and scientific evidence along with the self-consistent details, a learning curve that’s been going on for centuries.

What we do with that knowledge? Accept it, reject it, ignore it,
doesn’t really change anything about the fact of the evidence and that it does mean something.

All of us look at the world through our specific lens (so to speak), we interpret our world, via our unique experiences, and as Write4 likes pointing out, there is a lot of “hallucinating” going on, that is creative interpretations based on our unique perspectives.

I understand that you have been challenged with a huge load, given certain physical/neurologic tweaks. It’s a perfect example of our biological body impinging on our feelings.
I appreciate I know nothing of your world and outlook - and won’t pretend to.

Still, what little I do know is that scientific understanding, is scientific understanding, and for the curious it’s worth the effort of getting to know about, because it can hold answers to all sorts of information about the origins of our most personal hangups, questions and struggles.

In summary:

Being interacting with the environment & other beings, . . .
Body/Brain system organism,
each requiring the other, . . .
produces our mind.

Our mind is there to help your body and you navigate living your life.

That’s nature’s fundamental plan, with precursors found in single-celled organisms, then manifested in creatures from bugs, to Tiktaalik, and all the other animals that have roamed this miracle planet.

Why do you think you (human) can escape that fundamental business plan of life?

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218

There is a term that describes this general agreement whether by “conscious agreement” or “quorum sensing” in bacteria.

This "common interpretation of reality is called “empathy”, where you are sharing a moment of simultaneous cognition of an aspect of reality. A shared “controlled hallucination”. It is part of the “mirror neural network” in the brain.

219

But you feel stuff because of the brain though right? I mean we can cut off some sensation by tweaking with the brain. Even stuff like phantom limbs and the like proves that the brain is doing this.

It’s the same when it comes to beliefs, I’m sure tweaking the brain would change that, but that wouldn’t be ethical. But we know damage to the brain can change people, look at cases with tumors in the head.

But even still he would likely maintain it’s thoughts and beliefs.

I think someone else on the forum mentioned something about one’s like for stuff and where the feeling comes from, I think that because it comes from inside we are creating it, but isn’t it made because we are responding to something outside of us. Isn’t that technically something making us feel.

Even if it were beliefs, beliefs are shaped by people’s words, philosophies, events, anything really. So it’s still not a stretch to say stuff makes us feel.

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[quote=“inthedarkness, post:219, topic:10738”]
I think someone else on the forum mentioned something about one’s like for stuff and where the feeling comes from, I think that because it comes from inside we are creating it, but isn’t it made because we are responding to something outside of us. Isn’t that technically something making us feel?

Yep, getting stuff makes you feel good. Many species on earth collect stuff for all kinds of purposes.
The beginning of tool use and tool making.

Remember that a few billion years ago and long before humans emerged from the gene pool, the insect invented flying, underground farming, herding, and most important, hoarding, i.e. maintaining a food supply for future use.

This excellent survival mechanism, later practiced by humans, evolved into “greed”, the desire for wealth and luxury. An example that natural selection also produces species that become dominant and become known as “invasive species”.

image
image1920×1202 286 KB

https://www.si.edu/stories/escape-invasives

Many invasive species are so destructive of the environment that they end up killing their host environment and thereby commit suicide themselves.

Signs of Asian carp found farther upstream

image
image1000×691 139 KB

This 2009 photo shows silver carp jumping out of the Illinois River after being disturbed by sounds of watercraft.

AP Photo/Illinois River Biological Station via Detroit Free Press, Nerissa Michaels

Humans are an invasive species. Difference is that we know we are an invasive species.
Yet we do very little to address environmental issues as long as there is greed and wealth to be acquired at cost of the environment.

Even if it were beliefs, beliefs are shaped by people’s words, philosophies, events, anything really. So it’s still not a stretch to say stuff makes us feel.

Every organism on earth strives for “comfort” and that is achieved by successfully adapting to the environment.
If you don’t and become a “disturbance” to the environment, nature itself takes deterministic corrective action, and that is observable today in GW.

Did you know that commercial oil will run out in about 40 years and that this will affect every human on earth? We have 40 years to finance alternative energy sources, like solar for the entire world. China currently has the most advanced alternate energy industry.

Renewable energy in China

Renewable energy in China

China is the world’s leader in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over triple the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States. China’s renewable energy sector is growing faster than its fossil fuels and nuclear power capacity and is expected to contribute 43% of global renewable capacity
growth. China’s total renewable energy capacity exceeded 1,000 GW in 2021, accounting for… Wikipedia

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The point is that it’s not because the brain,
It’s because of the living organism interacting within a dynamic world

Take any one of those away - environment; body; brain, and complex thought is impossible.
Everything else is variations on a theme.

That makes sense to me.
As does Write’s post, though I don’t share his optimism.

Here’s an evolutionary/biological approach to understanding emotions.
About the origin of the seven basic emotions, with Mark Solms.

222

But it is because the brain since the brain is responsible for all that and more.

The dude I cited, Gary, would still think that this is based on beliefs and thoughts which I’m not sure about. Like how does a thought or belief create an emotion? I never got an answer to that. They affect emotions but create them? I’m not sure.