How Jesus Christ Changed My Life!! He Can Change Yours too!!

Great question. I don’t recall the guy ever offering any constructive dialogue explaining what he actually believes. Like does Guy think heaven is waiting for him? Does he think when he prays that God takes time out to listen to him? Does this God he prays to really judge you on the amount of praises one can heap on him? Would love for hims to try to seriously give us some impression of what, “me and my side” is?
I thought it was clear over the 4 years I've been here that I'm a far Right atheist who is interested in science -- but not humanism.
Also I’d be very curious to know how much that malicious clown – whom Russians with Christian extremists and social media manipulation helped planted – in the White House represents “him and his side”?
Only a little bit, but he's the only choice around nowadays.
Oneguy: We didn’t evolve to eat too much anything, but some people do for a variety of reasons.
https://www.businessinsider.com/evolutionary-reason-we-love-sugar-2014-4

How did you not know that we evolved to eat too much sugar?

Oneguy: The consensus is that we likely did evolve to be religious.
Idk where you got that consensus from, but it is clear to me that we have evolved to be social, we have evolved to have complex language, and we have evolved to be superstitious. Put those together and you can wind up being religious. But since some of us also evolved to be able to do critical thinking, we can overcome our superstitious nature, and escape the prospect of and the shackles of religion. (Just as we can learn to not eat too much sugar.)
Oneguy said: I said there is a connection between loss of faith and societal decline — not that loss of faith causes the decline. Its probably the other way around.
No. What you REALLY said is "One fact that should stand out to atheists is that societies where atheism is most common — Europe and East Asia — are going extinct, whereas the rest of the world is religious and surviving." Hence that directly suggests that atheism causes societies to go extinct. That is what you said.

But now, in the claim above, you say that societal decline probably causes loss of faith. Show how that is a claim rooted in science. I think it is rooted in your far right ideology with no coherent basis in fact. Actually, as societies decline, people are probably prone to becoming more religious.

Oneguy said: Being below TFR means going extinct. Their contingencies are perfect for them to reproduce, but they simply aren’t doing it.
2 things wrong with that claim also (You seem to be getting in the habit of making 2 erroneous claims at once.)
  1. The lowest rates of total fertility rate are in CHI-nah. Are you saying that the Chinese are going extinct? That’s weird, there’s more of them than anyone.

  2. If the “contingencies are perfect” for people to do anything, then people will do that thing. ANYTHING

Oneguy said: I thought it was clear over the 4 years I’ve been here that I’m a far Right atheist who is interested in science...
I think that your far right ideology T rumps your status as someone interested in science, 'cause you get the science wrong so often.

 

 

 

Oneguy, care to help out by offering your definition of Atheism?

The term “Atheism” seems to be a moving target of convenience and I’m just trying to figure out your version.

Mine is the usual definition – no god, no supernatural.

Oneguy: We didn’t evolve to eat too much anything, but some people do for a variety of reasons. https://www.businessinsider.com/evolutionary-reason-we-love-sugar-2014-4 How did you not know that we evolved to eat too much sugar?
There is a difference between an evolutionary craving for sugar and simply eating too much of it. Our modern processed diet is unnaturally loaded with sugar and we consume it without realizing it. Not to mention compulsive overeating is itself caused by emotional distress.
Idk where you got that consensus from, but it is clear to me that we have evolved to be social, we have evolved to have complex language, and we have evolved to be superstitious. Put those together and you can wind up being religious. But since some of us also evolved to be able to do critical thinking, we can overcome our superstitious nature, and escape the prospect of and the shackles of religion. (Just as we can learn to not eat too much sugar.)
Here are some good books about the topic.

https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Trust-Evolutionary-Landscape-Evolution/dp/0195178033

https://www.amazon.com/Why-Religion-Natural-Science-Not-dp-0199341540/dp/0199341540/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1589857605

https://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Cathedral-Evolution-Religion-Society/dp/0226901351/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1589857666&sr=1-6

There is a difference between an evolutionary craving for sugar and simply eating too much of it.
Wow, that is true. Craving sugar and eating too much of it are different things. Wanting to have sex with beautiful women is a craving that I used to have. But I didn't do it too much. If it had been constantly available to me, I very well might have. BECAUSE EVOLUTION GAVE ME THAT CRAVING.
No. What you REALLY said is “One fact that should stand out to atheists is that societies where atheism is most common — Europe and East Asia — are going extinct, whereas the rest of the world is religious and surviving.” Hence that directly suggests that atheism causes societies to go extinct. That is what you said. But now, in the claim above, you say that societal decline probably causes loss of faith.
I did a poor job of describing my idea, then.
Show how that is a claim rooted in science. I think it is rooted in your far right ideology with no coherent basis in fact. Actually, as societies decline, people are probably prone to becoming more religious.
It's a theory I've heard which I think is accurate. I don't know of any research done on it. However, it is undeniable that the most atheistic societies are not reproducing and the most religious societies are reproducing; and that makes one wonder why.
...that makes one wonder why.
Maybe because the people in the atheistic societies are smarter.

Don’t worry about the TFR so much. If you hadn’t noticed there are, what, 7 Billion of us now, with more on the way. I think we are safe from imminent extinction.

 

2 things wrong with that claim also (You seem to be getting in the habit of making 2 erroneous claims at once.) 1) The lowest rates of total fertility rate are in CHI-nah. Are you saying that the Chinese are going extinct? That’s weird, there’s more of them than anyone.
They aren't going to live forever so if they want to be part of the future, they better reproduce.
2) If the “contingencies are perfect” for people to do anything, then people will do that thing. ANYTHING
It doesn't look that way. The young in east Asia have every thing they need to start families, but they aren't for some reason.
 

I think that your far right ideology T rumps your status as someone interested in science, ’cause you get the science wrong so often.


My record so far is outstanding. This thread is proof.

Maybe because the people in the atheistic societies are smarter. Don’t worry about the TFR so much. If you hadn’t noticed there are, what, 7 Billion of us now, with more on the way. I think we are safe from imminent extinction.
I'm not worried about humanity going extinct, I'm just curious about why some groups of humans are going extinct; the ones who are most likely to be atheists.
Here are some good books about the topic. https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Trust-Evolutionary-Landscape-Evolution/dp/0195178033 https://www.amazon.com/Why-Religion-Natural-Science-Not-dp-0199341540/dp/0199341540/ref=mt_paperback?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1589857605 https://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Cathedral-Evolution-Religion-Society/dp/0226901351/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1589857666&sr=1-6
Good job. You actually gave info to support your point.

I still contend that we have evolved the abilities to learn to think critically, and thus to overcome our tendencies to rely on religions to control us and make us capable of working together in groups. Religions are primarily cultural artifacts. It is an easy way to control us, when we have not learned to think critically, but they are not, now, a culturally necessary means of enough of us surviving to reproduction.

We will continue to be social creatures and will be effected by cultural norms. And we will continue to be superstitious because it is part of the behavior of all of our fellow organisms, not just us. But we don’t have to be religious to function societally. In fact we would probably function better if we were not religious, but just honest.

Atheists are also not going extinct.

Atheists can arise out of a religious person. And every child born of a religious person is a potential atheist. So if you are right about the more prolific procreation by the religious, all of those babies they are making could turn out to be atheists, if they ever learn enough, that is.

If atheists are less pro-creative, then maybe they recognize that there are more than enough of us already. The religious have to follow doctrine that makes them reproduce more. No big mystery.

Like I said the Chinese have way greater population than just about anyone else. When they need to pop out more baby Chinese people, I am sure they will be able to handle it. They have been around for a while.

Tim;

You’re expressing the divide that exists within atheist academia right now. There are the more vocal anti-religious who think it can be eliminated, and the less well known who write books about the psychology and sociology of it. Both agree that we evolve with hyper-active agency detection. They split somewhere around the time of how that was either exploited and religion was created, or we continued to evolve and agency became something more abstract and integrated into cultural rule enforcement. One of those could be shaken off, we could just decide to stop doing religion, the other, not so much.

I think the most interesting, and I don’t think either has an answer for this, is how ideas of care and compassion came to be part of religion. It’s easy to see how fear of natural events became fear of the supernatural. Not so easy to see how those supernatural beings became the ones to tell us to share our food and love the stranger.

I prefer the “continual evolution” group, primarily because their thesis leads to a path out, whereas the more vocal group just claims we can stop. That path is what you say, that society can function without religion. But it has to be replaced. If you look at low religion countries, they are high on social programs. That didn’t happen overnight and it didn’t happen because they closed the churches.

I was trying to get caught up on this thread, then I hit this comment from oneguy, where were talking about fertility and migration and nations,

Immigrants are coming to the developed world because we need their young to support our geriatric W.E.I.R.D. societies. If we had sustainable TFR we would just tell them “sorry, we’re full”. They aren’t coming because they love it here.
Nations aren't restaurants. You say a few things that have scholarship to back them up, but you very quickly get confused and start making simplistic analogies leading to false conclusions.
I think the most interesting, and I don’t think either has an answer for this, is how ideas of care and compassion came to be part of religion. It’s easy to see how fear of natural events became fear of the supernatural. Not so easy to see how those supernatural beings became the ones to tell us to share our food and love the stranger.
Superstitious behavior is not restricted to actions that are shaped by negative consequences. It is also shaped by random positive consequences.

Example: I am a squirrel running about searching for acorns. I come to rest on a large flat rock. At that moment, a gust of wind arises and shakes loose an acorn from the tree above me. The acorn lands on the rock. I grab it and run off with my booty. Later, when hungry again, where do you think I go? To the rock of course.

Now if I were human when I suddenly received something that I dearly wanted when I stood on the rock, I would also be inclined to go stand on that rock in the future. I might also make up a narrative about the blessings bestowed by the God of the rock.

Kindly, anyone tells me about the origin of religion.

The origin of religion lies in the naturally developed superstitious behavior that has evolved in ALL organisms PLUS our human development of complex verbal behavior.

With our capacity for complex verbal behavior, we were able to put a narrative to our superstitions. That is when Man created the concept of God.

@anadybella

Kindly, anyone tells me about the origin of religion.


Tim once again manages a succinct serious valid response.

 

If you were interested in a longer version, might I offer a few thoughts of my own:

… In the years and decades since I’ve kept learning more about Earth’s amazing evolution and geophysics and also the scientific process itself.

A process that’s basically a set of rules for gathering and assessing our observations in an honest, open and disciplined manner that all who’ve made the effort to learn can access and trust.

Recently it occurred to me Gould was missing a much more fundamental divide that is crying out for recognition.

Specifically, the Magisteria of Physical Reality vs the Magisteria of our Human Mindscape.

Then while struggling to find and weave the words to explain myself, it became clear - Earth herself was not only central to my conception of reality, but supreme.

After all, heaven and hell had evaporated long ago and human hubris filled me with contempt rather than any shock or awe.

The Earth Centrist’s perspective acknowledges that Earth and her physical processes and the pageant of Evolution are the fundamental timeless touchstones of reality.

Part of Earth’s physical reality is that we humans were created by Earth out of her processes.

Science shows us that we belong to the mammalian branch of Earth’s animal kingdom. Yet, it’s undeniable that something quite unique happened about six million years ago when certain apes took a wild improbable evolutionary turn.

By and by, besides the marvel of our two hands, we developed two feet and legs that could stand tall or run for hours and a growing brain that learned rapidly.

During this period our brain physically morphed in some significant ways that enabled it to host a profound leap in cognitive information processing, storage and retrieval ability.

On the outside hominids learned to make tools, hunt, fish, and select plants, plus they mastered fire for cooking and better living.

On the inside our brains were growing and benefiting from the new super nourishment while human curiosity and adventures started filling and stretching our mindscapes with experiences and knowledge beyond anything the “natural” physical Earth ever knew.

By mindscape I mean the product of all the brain can perceive and process, which of course evolutionarily speaking was dependent on our brain’s hardware keeping up with the ever increasing volume of information and thoughts.

While the human mind and spirit are ineffable mysteries, they are also of tremendous consequence and real-world physical power.

They drove our growing ability to study and manipulate our world; to communicate and record our experiences;
and to formulate explanations for a world full of mysteries, threats and wonders.

People learned to think and gossip and paint pictures upon the canvas of cave walls, and even better, upon the canvas of each other’s imaginations. We’ve been adding to our brain’s awareness and complexity ever since.

Of course, while all this was going on our extraordinary human mind was also beginning to wonder about the ‘Why’ of the world it observed and the difficult, fragile, short lives we were allotted.

In seeking answers to unknowable questions it seems to me inevitable that Gods would inhabit our mindscape. I suspect inspired by buried memories of being coddled within mom’s protective loving bosom those first couple years of life.

No doubt these “Gods” enabled further successes, though not through super-natural interventions, but rather through their ability to form, conform, reform and transform the mindscapes of the masses of people beginning to congregate.

Thus, combining pragmatic civil societal needs with universally felt, but keenly personal questions, fears, and dreams. …

After the middle ages - tribal stories - accepted ancient doctrines - and religious “truths” were no longer enough to satisfy our mindscape’s growing desire for ever more understanding and power over the Earth.

The human brain took another tremendous leap forward in awareness with the Intellectual Enlightenment and the birth of serious disciplined scientific study.

Science’s success was dazzling in its ability to learn about, control and manipulate Earth’s physical resources and to transform entire environments.

Science was so successful that today most people believe we are the masters of our world and too many have fallen into the hubristic trap of believing our ever fertile mindscape is reality itself.

Which brings me back to Gould’s magisterium and his missing key.

The missing key is appreciating the fundamental “Magisteria of Physical Reality,” - and recognizing that both science and religion are products of the “Magisteria of Our Human Mindscape.”

Science seeks to objectively learn about our physical world, but we should still recognize all our understanding is embedded within and constrained by our brain’s mindscape.

Religion is all about the human mindscape itself, with its wonderful struggles, fears, spiritual undercurrents, needs and stories we create to give our live’s meaning and make it worth living, or at least bearable.

What’s the point? I think it’s about better appreciating our ‘frame of reference’ - and especially recognizing that we aren’t the center of creation.

This is important today because some have convinced themselves that they actually have a personal Almighty God in their back pockets, when in fact our Gods are as transient as governments and the human species itself.

Religions, heaven, hell, science, political beliefs, even God, they are all products of the human mindscape, generations of imaginings built upon previous generations of imaginings, all the way down.

That is not to say they are the same thing, they are not! Science is dedicated to honestly and objectively understanding physical reality while religion is concerned with the human imagination and our soul and spirit and our struggles through short life. They are different, but both are necessary human inventions.

Still, both are destined to be swept away by the hands of time, while Earth and life will continue its dance.

Here we are, 2019 history and sober assessment of physical facts is out of fashion and self-destructive fantasy thinking in the service of ruthless avarice is in.

Now it literally threatening to topple USA’s government Of The People, By The People, and For The People, in favor of a Me First, profits are more important than reality, oligarch run machine.

All the while the actual physical creation outside of our conceited petty minds keeps on unfolding, following well understood geophysical rules regardless.

Ignore at our own peril.
Confronting Science Contrarians: Bringing it back to Earth Centrism