https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/a...es_manson.html
http://mansondirect.com
I use this because everyone knows who he is but it’s more to address the use of a fallacy. Is it right to just outright dismiss him for crazy? Or is that ad homenim?
No, it’s not ad hominem to label someone as mentally deficient or disturbed. As long as you are using valid methods to make that determination.
Ad hominem is when you say “That point is wrong because you are insane”. The point, whatever it is, is right or wrong independent of the person making the point. Ad hominem does not address the point, it only addresses the person.
If someone is crazy, you still have every right to dismiss them. Their craziness seriously lowers the probability that things they say are true. They may occasionally hit on something true, or even frequently use things that they know YOU think are true, but chances are they are leading to some crazy conclusion. You will spend more time trying to unpack their logic than it is worth.
But isn’t that poisoning the well?
Also what about what the links said?
The first one didn’t work, and I know who Manson is. I don’t need to read a long post about him. If someone is saying that he said something true, then fine, defend the thing. It doesn’t make Manson any less crazy.
It’s not poisoning the well. Read the definition yourself. If it was the same thing, we wouldn’t have two names for it.
The first one didn't work, and I know who Manson is. I don't need to read a long post about him. If someone is saying that he said something true, then fine, defend the thing. It doesn't make Manson any less crazy. It's not poisoning the well. Read the definition yourself. If it was the same thing, we wouldn't have two names for it.I read the definitions for poisoning the well and they seem to apply here unless I'm missing something. Also if someone said something true doesn't that mean you can't just write them off for being crazy?
If someone is crazy, you still have every right to dismiss them. Their craziness seriously lowers the probability that things they say are true.Yes thank you! Now more than ever. And crazy is a loose term too. That's a large umbrella. Lotta stuff fits under there.
Tita; You’ve have been known for asking difficult questions and being very resistant to working toward an answer. You have to do some of the work. Just taking a position and sticking to it is easy. Babies do that. Don’t be a baby.
It’s just hard. Because of who he is I want him to be wrong. But the rules of argument say I cannot dismiss him for that. And if he is right about one things than what about other things he said. If he is right about something’s, being a psychopath and all, then what am I doing with my life?
... then what am I doing with my life?Living it to the best of your abilities.
It's just hard. Because of who he is I want him to be wrong. But the rules of argument say I cannot dismiss him for that. And if he is right about one things than what about other things he said. If he is right about something's, being a psychopath and all, then what am I doing with my life?You can make up your own mind. The things he is "right" about are not unique. He stole other people's idea and used them to make other people think he was smart. Those people didn't know any better, you do. And it works both ways, you can't dismiss people because they have mental illness, and you can't be sure someone is right about something just because they were proven right about something else. Nicola Tesla is a good example of that, or Isaac Newton. Both of them had some batshit crazy ideas. You're making up some cause and effect that doesn't exist.
I guess you’re right. I’m just terrified about admitting that a psychopath might have a point about a few things. Makes me think I have to radically change my life in the name of freedom.
And if he is right about one things than what about other things he said.
I'm just terrified about admitting that a psychopath might have a point about a few things. Makes me think I have to radically change my life in the name of freedom.That is a 'reverse ad hominem': because he says at least one true sentence, everything he says is true.
It's just hard. Because of who he is I want him to be wrong. But the rules of argument say I cannot dismiss him for that.Are you seriously talking about Charles Manson here? Is this an act? Are you kidding? Just go away!
He stole other people's idea and used them to make other people think he was smart. Those people didn't know any better, you do.Yeah I don't know about all that. Titan either doesn't know any better, or he's just trolling. I'm tending to lean towards the trolling angle. Repetitive posts that are circular. It's almost like he's trolling for sympathy or something. Yecch!
He stole other people's idea and used them to make other people think he was smart. Those people didn't know any better, you do.Yeah I don't know about all that. Titan either doesn't know any better, or he's just trolling. I'm tending to lean towards the trolling angle. Repetitive posts that are circular. It's almost like he's trolling for sympathy or something. Yecch! I'm afraid this isn't trolling. But I'm just trying to point out the counters people might make. Originally I would have just dismissed him out of simply being crazy, but since reading about philosophy I learned that I cannot do that anymore. So apparently I have to give him equal weight like any other.
And if he is right about one things than what about other things he said.
I'm just terrified about admitting that a psychopath might have a point about a few things. Makes me think I have to radically change my life in the name of freedom.That is a 'reverse ad hominem': because he says at least one true sentence, everything he says is true. But then there is the matter of how do I know what is true that he says. Then that goes on to whether or not he is right about our society, whether we are our own prisons, whether or not we made him into what he is (he claims to be a reflection of us). It then flows to whether or not we lock those people away to not acknowledge that part of humanity is in us too. At least that what goes on in my mind. None of that would have happened before when I just wrote him off for being crazy.
But then there is the matter of how do I know what is true that he says. Then that goes on to whether or not he is right about our society, whether we are our own prisons, whether or not we made him into what he is (he claims to be a reflection of us). It then flows to whether or not we lock those people away to not acknowledge that part of humanity is in us too. At least that what goes on in my mind. None of that would have happened before when I just wrote him off for being crazy.Here's some unsolicited advice. The guy who is in prison for getting people to kill for him is probably not the guy who has something wise to say. It's really not that hard. There's no fallacy. The word "probably" fixes that. No one in my 28 years of schooling ever told me to go out in the desert and plot to take down society. So I don't know what "reflection" he's talking about. And, oh, poor baby, we don't acknowledge him. He's only one of the most famous criminals ever. We lock him away to keep him away from people like you.
He stole other people's idea and used them to make other people think he was smart. Those people didn't know any better, you do.Yeah I don't know about all that. Titan either doesn't know any better, or he's just trolling. I'm tending to lean towards the trolling angle. Repetitive posts that are circular. It's almost like he's trolling for sympathy or something. Yecch! I'm afraid this isn't trolling. But I'm just trying to point out the counters people might make. Originally I would have just dismissed him out of simply being crazy, but since reading about philosophy I learned that I cannot do that anymore. So apparently I have to give him equal weight like any other. No philosophy ever said you have to give Charles Manson equal weight to anybody.
He stole other people's idea and used them to make other people think he was smart. Those people didn't know any better, you do.Yeah I don't know about all that. Titan either doesn't know any better, or he's just trolling. I'm tending to lean towards the trolling angle. Repetitive posts that are circular. It's almost like he's trolling for sympathy or something. Yecch! I'm afraid this isn't trolling. But I'm just trying to point out the counters people might make. Originally I would have just dismissed him out of simply being crazy, but since reading about philosophy I learned that I cannot do that anymore. So apparently I have to give him equal weight like any other. No philosophy ever said you have to give Charles Manson equal weight to anybody. That's what it was like when I went to college. They said you can't just dismiss someone for being crazy, at least the few courses of philosophy said that. While no philosophy said that explicitly the rules for arguing said that I cannot do that. Believe me I want to, I don't want to give that madman any credit it all, but it would be a fallacy to simply write him off. Not to mention any time someone refers to the words freedom, prison, or slavery, is a powerful thing. Most people grow up obsessed with freedom and wish it more than anything. To think that a psychopath in jail is more free than I am is a bit of a head spin, almost enough to wonder if you're doing anything wrong with your life? If anyone wants to be listened to, just mention freedom and slavery. Powerful words with emotion behind them. No one wants to be a slave or a prisoner. I tend to be obsessed with freedom, which is ironic really.