A few weeks ago I posted a picture of a billboard I drove by that said “Jesus Is Real!”, on Facebook. In the comments on the pic, a discussion about this started up, mostly about the possible world view of someone who would put up such a billboard. These comments were all from my non-religious friends. This week, one of my Mormon brothers in law decided to enter the fray. He wrote that I was simply doing missionary work for a different master. I of course replied and explained that non-belief is not an alternate belief system with a master or deity. I didn’t just switch out one collection of unprovable implausibilities for a new alternate version of the same.
Now it is becoming a back and forth, that has made it clear that I have breached the tabu of discussing religion and god that includes examination of the topic from a reason based approach. I am looking for some advice. This discussion could become the first and only reality based conversation I have ever had with a family member. And, I am fairly sure it is being followed by several of my hundreds of Mormon kin who have blatantly avoided ever entering into a conversation about the “elephant” in the room. I am new to stating my case for atheism and I know my tendency is to loose my cool and blow it all up. However, I think I will never have a better opportunity to engage in a clear and sober discussion about this with any of my family in a forum were I can take my time and be as respectful as possible, but never back down about who and what I am. My relationship with my family has always been very superficial because they don’t know or want to know anything about the reality of who and what I am, so this is not a situation where I am actually risking the loss of close connections, because they don’t exist.
My husband thinks I am out of my mind to have this interaction in a somewhat public space, but I don’t feel it will come back to haunt me. Also, if my family are following the discussion, I will be able to broadcast the truth about where the bear shit and be done with.
Well, off to read the next update. Any pointers are greatly appreciated.
Danny
Damn! I hope it doesn’t just fizzle out!
There is no one right way to do that. It sounds like you are keep respectfulness high on your priorities. My Baptist cousin chimes in on my Facebook discussions with family with “cousins first!” all the time. We are opposed on just about every front, except for the importance of family.
Well, he posted a rant about the last time people fell away from faith and god sent a flood. He also correctly identified that I was looking for an opportunity to have my say, but he said I was up on a soap box about. Then later he pulled he post back off.
Quoting your brother-in-law:
He wrote that I was simply doing missionary work for a different master.Agree with him, then say, “Yes, my master is humanity. It’s our job to help each other be rational and avoid wasting time and mental adjustment believing in mythical fairytales in the sky. Even faith has to be based on reality that can be proved. Can you offer any proof for your ‘faith-based’ fairytales?”
It won’t help your relationship with him, but it should make you feel better and cause him a significant raise in his blood pressure.
Occam
If you want to try to bury the hachet with your family, do it in meat space.
However, don’t try to debate Mormonism vs reason with them because, from your description…it sounds like they aren’t interested.
Most of my family and I have polar opposite religious and political views. We all agree Facebook is not the place to have those discussions. Keep it in the family, and private.
That’s just the thing with my family, they won’t even discuss it in private. Actually, we don’t see each other or talk at all other than “the weather”. The “importance” of family does not mean that family can be relied on in the case of my family. It means keep the mask on, and don’t speak.
I understand, but nothing on FaceBook is private. If you can both stay respectful and stick to facts it may work, but sticking with facts have never been a strong point of religious believers. Might be best if you just don’t discuss it at all.
“Might be best if you just don’t discuss it at all.”
Which is why I have not seen any of them since 97 at my mother’s funeral. Also, I can’t have a discussion if no one will engage in one, and they won’t, in private or at all. Personally, I’m tired of not being able connect with any of my family except in a superficial way. If they want to talk to, we are gaining to talk about real things or we are not going to talk. Life’s too short to waist it running your mouth just for appearances.
Well, except for the typos I agree with you. 
A few weeks ago I posted a picture of a billboard I drove by that said "Jesus Is Real!", on Facebook. In the comments on the pic, a discussion about this started up, mostly about the possible world view of someone who would put up such a billboard. These comments were all from my non-religious friends. This week, one of my Mormon brothers in law decided to enter the fray. He wrote that I was simply doing missionary work for a different master. I of course replied and explained that non-belief is not an alternate belief system with a master or deity. I didn't just switch out one collection of unprovable implausibilities for a new alternate version of the same. Now it is becoming a back and forth, that has made it clear that I have breached the tabu of discussing religion and god that includes examination of the topic from a reason based approach. I am looking for some advice. This discussion could become the first and only reality based conversation I have ever had with a family member. And, I am fairly sure it is being followed by several of my hundreds of Mormon kin who have blatantly avoided ever entering into a conversation about the "elephant" in the room. I am new to stating my case for atheism and I know my tendency is to loose my cool and blow it all up. However, I think I will never have a better opportunity to engage in a clear and sober discussion about this with any of my family in a forum were I can take my time and be as respectful as possible, but never back down about who and what I am. My relationship with my family has always been very superficial because they don't know or want to know anything about the reality of who and what I am, so this is not a situation where I am actually risking the loss of close connections, because they don't exist. My husband thinks I am out of my mind to have this interaction in a somewhat public space, but I don't feel it will come back to haunt me. Also, if my family are following the discussion, I will be able to broadcast the truth about where the bear shit and be done with. Well, off to read the next update. Any pointers are greatly appreciated. DannyIt's good if you can get through to your brother-in-law and some of the rest of your family, but don't be too surprised if they just shut down after a few exchanges--possibly out of fear. It's a novelty now, but it will probably wear off. But who knows, you might plant some seeeds. Good luck. Lois
Handyman;
The only thing you can do is be honest with yourself. If you do these relatives, if they truly care for you will eventually adapt to your life stance, even if they disagree with it. Remember that it is actions not theology that counts. Treat others with respect and help them when they need it. This is a long term project, you can’t convince people to change their life styles with solely intellectual arguments.
Well, it’s been an interesting day and the discussion did continue, and after the initial shock of breaking the tabu, more of the family joined the discussion and it has finished the day with all of us feeling ok about the interaction. Now they joke about it a bit and that’s perfectly fine with me. I just want us all to keep talking. It’s been an amazing day! Thanks for all the advice and support.
Danny
I usually just use arguments Sam Harris has used in his debates or lectures. He makes a lot of sense and is a very deep person who tends to see through the shroud of ignorance. Something he’s said before kind of seems to fit this situation, “If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument would you invoke to prove they should value it?”
In my mind, these people are crazy. Not necessarily hysterical maniacs, but as crazy as someone who believes iron age fairy tales to be modern reality. These people many times are beyond reason, so I don’t really have anything great you could say that would cause an immediate epiphany in your family member. If they don’t value evidence or logic, then they are lost. (IMO)
We are now talking about all kinds of things and as I suspected, many don’t buy the same claims lock stock and barrel. They cherry pick parts of religious concepts and discard others, because there is some logic behind the surface that pops up now and then. I am not going to wright them all off as crazy. There will be some who certainly are, but they usually stay very clear of conversations that indicate that they might expose shoddy thinking. They don’t want to delve into unfamiliar ground unless they are in force as a group. And, if they do, they usually showcase craziness that others, who are more logical and compassionate, don’t want to indorse or affiliate themselves with.
Adding to what Callisto said, I have often said on these forums you cannot have a rational argument with people who hold irrational beliefs.
Agreed Darron, but then what? It is not always possible to walk away from every irrational person. As Bill Hicks pointed out, if I just saw a bum on the street, well, it’s just a bum, but they’re EVERYWHERE. This is a systematic problem. I’m not going to judge anyone for fighting with family on Facebook since I do it myself. I choose topics when something comes up, like an election or Duck Dynasty. Sometimes you really can’t walk away, like at a school board meeting where your kids are students.
I usually end up not discussing whatever the topic is but discussing just what rationality is. I use to use language from philosophy but lately I’ve tried to simplify it to something like, “how do you know that’s true?” This is what The Enlightenment gave us, the right to question authority, the right to express our beliefs and require a rational explanation when an opinion is questioned.
In most of these conversations, where it ends is the very idea of authority is brought into question. My sources are questioned, my methods are questioned, the concept of one idea proceeding from another is questioned. So far, whenever I’ve pointed this out, there is no response. Actually there’s one guy, a conspiracy theorist, who ends with how I just need to “do my own research” and then I’ll see things his way. I switched to just asking him to not call me names anymore.
Adding to what Callisto said, I have often said on these forums you cannot have a rational argument with people who hold irrational beliefs.Yes. And this is why I almost never engage a religious person in a conversation about religious beliefs except on Internet forums. I very seldom have done it face to face unless the other person agrees to a no-holds-barred debate. Lois
I’m much the same, but when I have to, first, I say we cannot have a discussion without having his basis for belief available - we have to have a bible in hand. After that’s done, I don’t claim anything, just ask questions about the meaning of a variety of parts of the bible and what god’s motivation was to do that. And, they can’t try to avoid the literal statements because we’ve got the document right there. We never get anywhere, but it leaves them pretty bothered, which is all I can hope to do.
Occam