Exactly. You digress away from most my topics.
Maybe try interacting with the feedback instead of attacking me
Lausten, this is about the disregard for certain important facts.
This discussion started featuring Pinker and his message that Progress is God in whom we Trust.
I’ve done enough homework to have learned that Pinker is guilty of gross disregard for climate science and geophysical facts and trends, he has never even studies as much, but grand pronouncement and insinuations and disparagement. - You disagree and take his defense. (and I’ll get back to him in due course.) so we clash.
I don’t hear any willingness to look at the underbelly of all our progress. You are concerned with human issues. That other stuff can wait, I guess.
You are ignoring I talk about the need to do one’s own homework.
I’m not asking anyone to believe anything, I’m reporting on what I’ve learned.
I’m pointing out an observation : the Faith based ego centric nature of our western religion/philosophy, along with pre-modern science and unfortunately much of post modern science as well.
Wow, … .
That’s like saying, I hear you man.
But then you drop that previous line - …
You don’t understand it’s your words and how well they represent the collective mind set that is my target, so stop taking it so personal.
Well, you make that so easy with your baiting one liners,
but guess that the name of the game these days.
As important/valuable it’s been, I do so dread dealing with you,
… …
… do the best I can, with what I got, and alas it is what it is.
Frankly, because your feedback tends to be missing the mark on various levels.
(So it’s like stick fighting in the dark.) I’m out to better explain and define, so I’ll keep showing up.
————-
Lausten, this isn’t about accepting anything.
This is about recognition and appreciating the significance of,
Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide
Body/Brain ~ Mind
Earth Centrism ~ Self-Absorbed / Self-Serving
Science ~ Religion/Philosophy
There’s not a test or certificate, karma will take care of all that, as we participate and watch events unfold.
For better or worse, each of us lives the reality of our own particular life.
My struggle has be to understand for myself how we and intelligent humans collectively so f’n screwed ourselves, so badly, and so willing, and I have cracked that puzzle, along with a few others.
No it didn’t. I stopped reading at this point. You can have the discussion that is here, or you can live in your own world. Your choice.
Which discussion is that, how humans can learn from mistakes and help each other understanding difficult challenges, how great we are at improving things, . . . ?
I’ve summarized it and shortened it a couple times. How about one word, “progress”, how do we achieve, how do we measure it.
What’s the distinction? How is “accepting” different from “recognition and appreciating the significance”?
By the health of Earth’s biosphere that supplies our life support system.
By the mental health of our societal systems, and the human contract between that exists between us, the general quality of the mental health of citizens.
By our ability to nurture Earth, etc., etc…
The distinction ?
One is the stuff of human faith, and religious attitudes, and institutional expectations.
The other is created organically, the result of consuming and digesting the evidence
Earth, people and living provides us.
That could use improvement.
This is what I don’t see evidence for. This is a claim, it’s not a logical connection of data and evidence to a conclusion.
Oh good grief, like a steady diet of information, facts, and knowledge offers nothing to the individual striving to digest and understand said knowledge.
Allowing facts to speak for themselves - instead of constantly jamming those facts into one’s preordained world perspectives.
There is a difference between facts “offer nothing” and “facts don’t change minds”. This is well studied and the data is growing as social media polarization increases. It is a critical issue to understand in the current time. You can easily find studies, articles, and entire groups that get this and teach it. This was my first hit:
It starts with a dumb story, but then it talks about studies done on the issue dear to your heart. It offers excellent advice on how to speak to people, not just shove facts in their face. As the scientists of one study say
“As a general rule, strong feelings about issues do not emerge from deep understanding”
The irony, this is a fact, so I’m presenting you some facts that say facts don’t change minds, and I want to change your mind. So, really, it’s WHICH facts, and HOW they are presented. This is the discussion you refuse to have.
It’s funny. I’m reading the book, Misbelief by Dan Ariely that was recommended by a new member here. I thought of you two and your ongoing discussions. From his book:
In such cases, the feeling of possessing unique knowledge provides a sense of control and feelings of superiority.
In my many discussions with misbelievers, discussions that sometimes took hours and occurred over the course of several years, I often felt that they were spending so much time with me because they hoped they would be able to convert me to their worldviews.
BTW, it’s a really good book.
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I deleted the above post because of technical difficulties and I want to be sure to address this correctly.
So you are implying an equivalence between Geophysics & Biology Religion & Philosophy?
All of them are simply human believe systems?
Where does Pinker’s worship of progress as our salvation, fit into this?
I don’t think he is and can’t figure out why you think that.
You are the only one talking about this
Not at all. The quote from the book illustrated someone who felt they had special knowledge and then wanted the author to accept that person’s special knowledge as his own worldview. I haven’t really followed the details of the several threads you two have had - tl;dr.
But this should not be taken negatively. Strangely enough, I think you have both developed a sort of friendship over these topics and that’s nice. 
I would say you are making sensible choices about effective use of your time.
some clarification. I have never argued against CC’s facts on global warming, or about the problems of money in politics, advertising, general ownership class global issues, the existence of the Abrahamic God, and I’m sure there are more on that list. I have argued vehemently about how to engage with people who do like to argue those facts, who have their own set of facts that aren’t facts. For months now, when I critique a presentation of facts, CC reacts as if I’ve argued against the facts or the prioritization of the importance thereof.
I would have to look back before 2022 to find when things were better. The friendship has become strained since then. It’s more like the one I have with my staunchly Republican cousin.
Right, I’m saying that my comment should not be taken negatively. I know that you and CC agree on more issues than not.
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That is simply not true.
You, Pinker (and most everyone else) diminish the reality of geophysical dynamics and the facts of the damages we have already inflicted. *
How can I make that claim, well because:
You insist we can continue having our cake (the God of Progress leading the way) without fatally disrupting our Earth’s life support systems - even though the evidence is getting so hideous and discoverable within all the nooks and crannies of Earths complex systems, that I hardly post on it anymore.
Simple fact of Earth is that we are well past that point, and nothing of impact has happened in the human attitude towards this planet we don’t even really realize we depend on, or to slow down, instead all the focus is on consuming and destroying fast as possible.
- and why because it comes back to our self-absorption, self-serving-actions, and disregard for everything beyond our own short term interests.
All the talk and all the hurt feeling doesn’t change the geophysical facts of what we ourselves collectively are doing to this planet that provides all of our life support systems. Oh but Musk has a plan, we can find salvation of Mars. Great.
And you wonder why I’m . . .
1 - False equivalency. argued <> diminish
2 - Victim mentality. “most everyone”
3 - Lack of evidence.
I don’t.
Exaggeration
At least you include yourself in there.
I hate Musk.