Does something being automatic mean it's not you?

[lausten]

This thread has me thinking, as one does. I know Ernest Becker spent some time on this. Not sure he solved anything, but made some good points.

Beyond a given point man is not helped by more “knowing,” but only by living and doing in a partly self-forgetful way. As Goethe put it, we must plunge into experience and then reflect on the meaning of it. All reflection and no plunging drives us mad; all plunging and no reflection, and we are brutes.
Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

This is the easy dichotomy. If you are reflecting, you can find someone who is merely experiencing and accuse them of being in denial, of not facing reality. If you are loving life, living it fully, you might wonder what those navel gazers are up to.

Too much of either is dangerous.

In this next quote, he assumes illusion is a solution and uses as evidence those who don’t maintain it and how they become neurotic without the illusion. Did he ever examine those who stared into the face of death but are not debilitated by it?

The neurotic opts out of life because he is having trouble maintaining his illusions about it, which proves nothing less than that life is possible only with illusions.

Maybe he should have hung out more with artists. The ones who shun the society of self delusion, but are still able to function in it.

The key to the creative type is that he is separated out of the common pool of shared meanings. There is something in his life experience that makes him take in the world as a problem; as a result he has to make personal sense out of it.

[write4u]

Meaning and joy lies in the journey, not in its completion as that is only the beginning of another journey.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

Billions of people have seen what you see and go on living happy lives. This is a conundrum to you. You want us to reach the same conclusion as you after we have examined the same data. But there is no logic to your conclusion. Feelings go on occurring despite the realization they will one day end. The causes of feeling good or bad remain the same. The feeling of meaningless doesn’t override every other feeling.

Well no they don’t, they distract themselves from it. Few have actually reckoned with the meaninglessness of existence and how making meaning doesn’t solve it but you think it does which means you haven’t reckoned with it.

Having the desire to live isn’t wonderful, it’s a curse. You are effectively forced to participate unless you can overcome the drive.

@lausten

In this next quote, he assumes illusion is a solution and uses as evidence those who don’t maintain it and how they become neurotic without the illusion. Did he ever examine those who stared into the face of death but are not debilitated by it?

He’s not talking about death entirely, more like our notion of self importance and that our stuff “matters”.

@write4u

Meaning and joy lies in the journey, not in its completion as that is only the beginning of another journey.

There is no meaning in the journey, that’s just another delusion

[write4u]

[quote=“inthedarkness, post:63, topic:10989”]
There is no meaning in the journey, that’s just another delusion

Yes, its all a hallucination. So what?

Does your having a realistic outlook prevent you from enjoying yourself?

Have you ever been sailing and felt that wonderful surge when the wind fills the sails and propels you forward against the wind itself?
Have you ever flown a plane and know what a bird experiences when it looks down to the earth from above. Have you ever cried when listening to a musical masterpiece

I have enjoyed my journeys through life and I am not afraid of what comes after.

As Seth impresses: “when you die, there is nothing to be afraid of, nothing at all!”

So while you’re at it, live your life to its fullest. You are one of the lucky ones to be alive, but you only get to do it once. Use the opportunity!!!

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

Well no they don’t, they distract themselves from it. Few have actually reckoned with the meaninglessness of existence and how making meaning doesn’t solve it but you think it does which means you haven’t reckoned with it.

You’re stuck on bare assertion.

It’s not a problem to be solved, that’s the first mistake. That’s the only way your logic works; call it a problem without a solution, any solution is wrong, say that it means something. Oh, but if irony there.

[inthedarkness]

@write4u

Yes, its all a hallucination. So what?

Does your having a realistic outlook prevent you from enjoying yourself?

Have you ever been sailing and felt that wonderful surge when the wind fills the sails and propels you forward against the wind itself?
Have you ever flown a plane and know what a bird experiences when it looks down to the earth from above. Have you ever cried when listening to a musical masterpiece

I have enjoyed my journeys through life and I am not afraid of what comes after.

As Seth impresses: “when you die, there is nothing to be afraid of, nothing at all!”

If it’s all a hallucination that’s a problem. Yes having a realistic outlook prevents my from enjoying myself, but that’s the price of being right.

No I have never felt that with the wind.

I have flown but that doesn’t mean I know what a bird experiences because I’m not a bird and not capable of flight.

@write4u

So while you’re at it, live your life to its fullest. You are one of the lucky ones to be alive, but you only get to do it once. Use the opportunity!!!

I told you it’s not lucky one is alive. That’s an incredibly naive and privileged viewpoint.

@lausten

You’re stuck on bare assertion.

It’s not a problem to be solved, that’s the first mistake. That’s the only way your logic works; call it a problem without a solution, any solution is wrong, say that it means something. Oh, but if irony there.

But it is a problem to solve. Otherwise we’d have to just go on pretending these things matter.

[write4u]

@inthedarkness

I told you it’s not lucky one is alive. That’s an incredibly naive and privileged viewpoint.

It is indeed a privileged viewpoint and you choose to stuff it in the trashcan like a naive child that didn’t get his candy.

Life is the most precious gift one can receive, but for you it isn’t enough.
You want more?

[inthedarkness]

@write4u

It is indeed a privileged viewpoint and you choose to stuff it in the trashcan like a naive child that didn’t get his candy.

I don’t think you understand what I mean by that, I mean it’s misguided. Naive.

Life isn’t a precious gift, it’s a burden forced on us against our will.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

Life isn’t a precious gift, it’s a burden forced on us against our will.

Wow. That is something I’ve only heard from a teenager, the kind who has been given everything and doesn’t appreciate it. It lowers my opinion of you. I would suggest not saying this to anyone who offers to help you. It doesn’t help your case in this conversation either.

[citizenschallengev4]

@inthedarkness

Life isn’t a precious gift, it’s a burden forced on us against our will.

It is what you make of it.

With a cruel twist, each of us is responsible for saving ourselves, no one can do that for us.

Good luck and best wishes.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

Wow. That is something I’ve only heard from a teenager, the kind who has been given everything and doesn’t appreciate it. It lowers my opinion of you. I would suggest not saying this to anyone who offers to help you. It doesn’t help your case in this conversation either.

It’s not me who thinks so, plenty of people not so well off think the same. It’s even a common case made by antinatalists and lots of people in the school of pessimist philosophy. This a is wildly incorrect viewpoint rooted in someone who was lucky in life which makes my point for me and the antinatalists as well.

Like I said, the idea that life is good is a naive viewpoint. It’s shortsighted because things worked out for you. I also think it’s telling that people can have so much but still suffer, almost like life isn’t a gift or wonder or blessing.

[inthedarkness]

@citizenschallengev4

It is what you make of it.

With a cruel twist, each of us is responsible for saving ourselves, no one can do that for us.

Good luck and best wishes.

This is also not true. Many aren’t lucky enough to be born in the circumstances to change their own lives. Again this is a lack of perspective from both of you. The evidence doesn’t support your views.

[citizenschallengev4]

@inthedarkness

Many aren’t lucky enough to be born in the circumstances to change their own lives.

You’re missing the point.
It’s about working within your circumstances.
You are stuck with yourself, and your body, one way or the other. Everything you experience, you experience through that body.

Yes some have it much easier. I know all about constraints, but for me mainly due to financial limitation. I did have the priceless advantage of a loving fascinating childhood, fit body, willingness to work and learn, and a curiosity that drove me. Luck has been with me more times than not, despite all the times I’ve shot myself in the foot.

But we gotta work for our good luck, don’t let anyone kid you otherwise.

Still, I needed to deal with me, how I dealt with the world, with disappointments, with successes, my expectations, my bewilderment, etc., etc., and so a lot of growing. I sowed by seeds and reaped my rewards as we all do, now here I am.

Inthedark, I admit my own life will always color my perspective of the possible. You were born in a different time, I don’t think I could make it in today’s world. Certainly couldn’t have lived the tramping chaotic wonder filled life I did during my prime. I was too much of an outlaw for today, as in working under the table and living without a parachute sense, following my rules, sometimes within the system, sometimes skirting it. That’s why I’m so amazed at being here nearly 7 decades now and have nothing but wonder in my eyes - (until I think about the political social situation). What’s been really blowing me away lately, is how close that 18 year old still is. I like to think that’s a good sign.

So guess I should just shut up and let it be. It is what it is.
But one way or the other, no matter what your lot in life is, you need to find a way to navigate it, to survive, thrive, or you’ll wither away. Nothing in nature says it needs to be one or the other.

If you can find peace with it so much the better. If not,

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

It’s not me who thinks so, plenty of people not so well off think the same.

We’re not talking about people who are born into horrible circumstances and lead short miserable lives. That’s a different discussion. I know that someone less privileged could say, “life’s but fair” and be correct. Even then, they could improve their lot, that is always possible. But you have said very little, other than a somewhat low income and limited job prospects.

Saying, life is thrust upon you, includes an assumption that there is some “you” that could be somewhere else. I have no idea where or what you were that life was thrust on. There is only you as a human now, or not you. It comes with a drive to survive and proceate. It comes with confusing questions about why you are here. Maybe worse, it comes with other people who have some dumb answers to life’s persistent questions.

I didn’t say life is good for you, or even for most people. Calling in the antinatalists shows you’re getting pretty desperate for reasoning. You live in America in this modern world. You are better off than 99.9% of humans in history by that fact alone. It gets a little weird because we are wired for more brutal circumstances, yet we have the leisure time to reflect on a much better life. We know that some people are born into luxury and they think it justifies them exploiting us, and we know they are wrong for thinking it. In those ways, are lives are suckier. Whining about it won’t change anything and we have systems to affect change now.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

I didn’t say life is good for you, or even for most people. Calling in the antinatalists shows you’re getting pretty desperate for reasoning. You live in America in this modern world. You are better off than 99.9% of humans in history by that fact alone. It gets a little weird because we are wired for more brutal circumstances, yet we have the leisure time to reflect on a much better life. We know that some people are born into luxury and they think it justifies them exploiting us, and we know they are wrong for thinking it. In those ways, are lives are suckier. Whining about it won’t change anything and we have systems to affect change now.

That’s not entirely accurate. Life is only better if you’re one of the lucky ones that was born with the resources to make something of life. For most they can’t. They work everyday and have little time for anything else. Humans had more freedom in the past than they did today. We don’t have systems to affect change, the people on top run the system. It’s rigged against you. That’s the reality.

Life is thrust on you. Your parents made the choice to birth you and left you to have to deal with there not really being any reason for existing or meaning behind it. It was a choice you never made. Calling in the antinatalists isn’t desperation, more like having reasoning you’d accept. Your arguments aren’t really valid because they’re based on being lucky in the world.

@citizenschallengev4

You’re missing the point.
It’s about working within your circumstances.
You are stuck with yourself, and your body, one way or the other. Everything you experience, you experience through that body.

That’s what I mean, not everyone has the circumstances to do that. Millions don’t in fact.

@citizenschallengev4

So guess I should just shut up and let it be. It is what it is.
But one way or the other, no matter what your lot in life is, you need to find a way to navigate it, to survive, thrive, or you’ll wither away. Nothing in nature says it needs to be one or the other.

There isn’t really any way to do that. Nature says life is brutal, hence what it’s like to live in the wilderness where it’s unforgiving. We shaped it otherwise but even then you’ll see the forces of nature testing our resistance.

nothing says you have to navigate or survive or thrive, you might have a survival drive but that means nothing. Why do we have to listen to it? Life seems to propagate itself for no reason.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

It’s rigged against you. That’s the reality.

I’m glad you’ve finally revealed yourself as a victim. I know it’s going around so I don’t completely blame you. But, you are the best person to deal with it. You can get all sorts of help, but you showing that you want to be something, to improve yourself, will open a lot more doors.

I think we’re done with existential philosophy. That was just a way for you to avoid facing the facts of life. Not the ultimate meaning, just the basic facts that if you want to eat, you have to work. That was more true in the past, more immediate. Now, you can get a job and get a couple days off a week.

[inthedarkness]

@lausten

I’m glad you’ve finally revealed yourself as a victim. I know it’s going around so I don’t completely blame you. But, you are the best person to deal with it. You can get all sorts of help, but you showing that you want to be something, to improve yourself, will open a lot more doors.

I think we’re done with existential philosophy. That was just a way for you to avoid facing the facts of life

Not really no, it’s more like something that makes me question the reason for going on. Instead of it being some dry “life is worth living” I’m asking if that is true. There’s saying it and then there is believing that.

[lausten]

@inthedarkness

There’s saying it and then there is believing that.

Trapped in his own body for 23 years - the coma victim who screamed unheard

There isn’t some story, some answer, to why you should choose life. Certainly not one that can be typed on a forum. The answer is in your real life somewhere. The different philosophies and points of view you have put in this thread show you have looked into it. They show you care.

Some things you say indicate you have some normal kind of low days and some not so healthy coping mechanisms. There is no formula for any of this. There is no pill, trust me on that one.

[citizenschallengev4]

@inthedarkness

That’s what I mean, not everyone has the circumstances to do that. Millions don’t in fact.

@citizenschallengev4

You’re missing the point.
It’s about working within your circumstances.
You are stuck with yourself, and your body, one way or the other. Everything you experience, you experience through that body.

@inthedarkness

Nature says life is brutal,

And you have no idea of how challenging and brutal nature can be, it’s you apparently thinking the default should be patty cake all day long, or something nice like that. Read Lausten’s #73 a little closer.

You’re stuck in a human society, that is not the natural world.

[inthedarkness]

@citizenschallengev4

And you have no idea of how challenging and brutal nature can be, it’s you apparently thinking the default should be patty cake all day long, or something nice like that. Read Lausten’s #73 a little closer.

I do know that’s why I said it.