You only prove my point that you know nothing. LIke I said, the fact you use the analogy means you know nothing. Again I actually spoke, or rather emailed with, Seth. YOU are wrong.
Also Sabine is a point against your position not for it. The brain does not use quantum effects, that’s called woo and pseudoscience.
LIke I said, this is still irrelevant like your usual intrusions. This stuff with microtubules is effectively nonsense.
And your stuff is important? I think you have a lot to learn.
That would be you. You try this is practically every thread and it never flies, because it’s nonsense, even the wiki article says so.
Not to mention none of this was relevant. You also, again, don’t understand the people you quote. Like I said, I’ve emailed Seth, the brain is the vat is so far from the mark you’re not even in the same plane of reality.
Like I said, lots of info, zero comprehension or analysis.
Then why do you come with questions that cannot be answered.
I have seen nothing of any scientific value except complaints.
Give me something I can judge, or are you going to play the pre-emption card.
Very political of you You have no idea how well informed I am n the subject of ORCH OR. You know nothing about me. And that makes you prejudicial.
I have afforded you every courtesy and you think you can judge me?
You are going to have to much better than that.
There really isn’t any need. You aren’t versed in it and the sources you linked literally disprove your claim. It’s always nonsense.
Not to mention not relevant to the video or thread. The fact you leapt to sensation was the first error. The second was thinking Seth’s controlled hallucination was anything like Descartes brain in a vat.
Thing is I do know about you from your positing patterns on here. It’s why I don’t regard what you say too seriously.
Error in what?
That an eagle’s eye evolved from a 500 million year old “light sensitive” patch is a leap?
Don’t make unsupported critiques.
Anil Seth clearly states that the brain is located in an isolated environment and that it gets all it’s neural information via the spinal chord. That’s it!
Your spinal cord carries nerve signals from your brain to your body and vice versa . These nerve signals help you feel sensations and move your body. Any damage to your spinal cord can affect your movement or function.
Note that in humans, except for touch all sensory organs are located on the head for efficient data transmission to the brain.
Disable the senses and your brain has no access to data.
Ever been in a sensory deprivation chamber? Don’t stay too long or your brain begins “uncontrolled hallucinations” and eventually goes mad.
p.s. I have also emailed Anil Seth. I didn’t know that was some accomplishment.
If you did that then you should know better. You should also know the sensory deprivation tank doesn’t really prove your point about the brain in a vat.
He doesn’t say the brain is locked in an isolated environment either. Like again, you throw out data but don’t understand what it means. It’s obvious you didn’t watch the same video I did.
Like I said, zero comprehension. You’re just spitting things out with no thought put into it.
Okay. I think you’ve both stated your case. This does not appear to be moving toward resolution.
I gave you the link to the video. So you admit you did not see the video and your comment is not based on my supporting evidence.
Watch it, then comment. Perhaps we can have an informed discussion
Here it is again.
pay attention @4:20
The billions of neurons he speaks of are the trillions of microtubules that do the actual data processing as described by Stuart Hameroff in regards to ORCH OR.
And as far as “uncontrolled hallucinations” experienced in deprivation tanks:
Many people have reported having hallucinations in a sensory deprivation tank. Over the years, studies have shown that sensory deprivation does induce psychosis-like experiences. A 2015 study divided 46 people into two groups based on how prone they were to hallucinations. Sep 14, 2018
Sensory Deprivation Tank: Effects and Health Benefits
Not what he says nor is it a mention of microtubules. Again your own wiki link disproves the theory you are peddling. Stop making things up.
Also the deprivation tank proves nothing. You don’t know what he means by controlled hallucination. It’s like he said, a best guess of what’s out there, doesn’t mean there is no out there.
Hence why your brain in vat is missing the mark.
TBH I don’t know why I’m still arguing this when it’s mistaken and has nothing to do with my original post.
I know but that is where connection exist. Everything is connected to everything else.
In the case of data processing, it is the microtubules in the cytoplasm, the cytoskeleton, and the neurons, that do the data transport and data storing and are the substrate from which consciousness a nd cognition emerges.
[quote=“inthedarkness, post:30, topic:10989”]
Not what he says nor is it a mention of microtubules. Again your own wiki link disproves the theory you are peddling. Stop making things up.
Try to learn something, instead of shutting your mind to existing knowledge.
We also refer to “electric wiring”, and not refer to the “copper strands” inside that wiring.
Do your biology and check out the term “microtubule”. Wait I’ll do it for you.
Note that ALL Eukaryote organisms on earth have microtubules that do the data processing and distribute the necessary energy for the organism to exist.
**Microtubules may be the brains of the cell, particularly neurons—operating like a computerized Lego set. They are large complex scaffolding molecules that work closely with the two other rapidly changing structural molecules, actin and intermediate filaments, to provide structure for the entire cell including the spatial placement of organelles.
In neurons, microtubules respond instantly to mental events and constantly build and take down elaborate structures for the rapidly changing axons and dendrites of the synapses.
Some think that microtubules are quantum computers and the seat of consciousness. Their lifestyle is quite remarkable. A previous post described elaborate functions along the neuron’s axon including special tagging of cargoes that are transported by distinct motors with complex ancillary molecules for each type of transport.**
Also the deprivation tank proves nothing. You don’t know what he means by controlled hallucination. It’s like he said, a best guess of what’s out there, doesn’t mean there is no out there.
It proves that without external input the mind starts uncontrolled hallucinations
Hence why your brain in vat is missing the mark.
No, it means that without sensory input the brain becomes lost in its own memories.
Remember, the brain can only make a “best guess” as to what’s out there (Seth), and if you feed it false information (Descartes), it does not know the difference and will believe that information instead of information normally forwarded by the senses.
Let me try one more time to convince this person that he is underinformed in the area of consciousness self, and how it emerges from cellular and neural data processing
Again no and the wiki link says so.
It depends. Not everyone gets them. I know I didn’t. Even then it proves nothing.
Wrong again. Descartes brain in vat is more a thought experiment about whether you can know there is an outside or not. Seth isn’t saying that. He’s saying there’s an outside. The tank doesn’t really prove anything, those hallucinations aren’t real hence why he uses the term controlled because it’s still reality just our attempt to see what’s out there.
The only one underinformed is you, laughably so. Like I said, data with no thought behind it all. Quantum consciousness is pseudoscience. You don’t understand Descartes, you don’t understand Seth, and you still didn’t really address the video you just went on a tangent.
You’re just an idiot. Information means nothing without being able to think it through and analyze it, but you just vomit stuff out like it means something.
Dear god…am I arguing with myself? This is literally how I’ve interacted with people, am I really this obtuse?
Neither one of you are doing the most basic thing that you do when arguing scientific information, that is, quoting tbe source. You say, “Seth said X”, but you don’t say where. I hear a couple sentence fragments repeated, but that’s it.
To be honest none of this has anything to do with the video I linked. I did watch the TED talk with Seth but it’s not implying what he thinks it is.
It’s moot either way as I said waaay earlier this has nothing to do with the video I linked.
I have provided exact references to everything I have said. He does not make arguments. He just dismisses what is being said. That;'s not debating the merits.
What I don’t understand is that complains he doesn’t understand reality, then turns that into an argument that nobody understands him and that people who try tu steer him in the right direction don’t know what they are talking about.
This is completely upside down. But I agree, this is hopeless. I give up.
inthedarknes, be well.
Not really, your references not only work against you but are kinda sketchy. The only valid ones were the TED talk and wikipedia and neither said what you wanted them to.
This was lost from the start since you still didn’t address the video.
It was lost on you from the start., since you did not study the video.
Click.
Hmmm, quite the, er debate.
My neck’s starting to hurt so I thought perhaps I’d go back to the beginning, now that I finally got around to watching the video, allow me to say this about that.
0:15
*Fear is an automatic response in your brain to perceived scary &^%.
But fear itself is not under your conscious control.
It is automatic, and if it’s automatic, then that is not you.
Who says. If he were serious about the topic he should be starting by defining what “you” is. Instead it’s Hollywood flash & bang, flashing images, and creative rhetorical gymnastics
0:53
So that is not you.
Why not? You are your body and all that unfolds within it,
1:30
You don’t control what scares (etc.) you , you don’t control basic survival stuff, you don’t control what you enjoy – so, okay, but at least you can choose what your brain is processing, right?
So what? Why should any of that invalidate the reality of you being you, and that your mind is as real thing as your body/brain?
1:46
They’re just coming in, and your brain is doing the work for you.
Here the speaker is telling that your brain is not you. W.T.F.
2:47
But if you play an instrument, you may have noticed your fingers just know what they’re doing – automatically.
What !?! When I play an instruments my hands know exactly what I do, but an undefinable cacophony is the result. How does the life time of practice and dedication to trains ones body to play an instrument make the playing of it NOT YOU?
3:07
Yeah, okay, but at least simple motor tasks are in your control – moving a hand, or a leg, or whatever.
3:23
The weird thing is that the brain seems to be preparing to push the button a disturbing length of time
We’re talking milliseconds, and like he says, there were problems with the experiment, so don’t read too much into it. Besides, life is all about learning, even subconscious learning, which allow us to anticipate and prepare. We know way to little to make grand philosophical claims based on a sketchy experiment and insufficient thought digestion time.
3:47
Okay, so fear isn’t you, survival stuff isn’t you, preference isn’t you, lots of motor control isn’t you –
This guy just says “these things aren’t you” and you are supposed to believe him. Why? Why aren’t your autonomous motor controls that work neuron in neuron with your conscious and sub conscious mind to enable your body to function as it does. Each of using having specialized skills to match specialized needs. How does any of that make it No You?
4:45
if you put everything else out of your mind – all the anxieties, and the neuroses, all the sensations of your body – You will find that underneath all of that is nothing but awareness. There’s no obvious you on the inside,
Nonsense. There’s a grand meditative sort of exercise that involves focused breathing and releasing muscular tensions, systematically from toes to head. Your active belly is a constant remind stuff is going on.
There are all sort of interchanges between our insides and outsides that combine to produce those thoughts in your mind. All of that Is You
5:10
You, as a thing, don’t seem to have a center, if you look for one.
We have many centers, your cojones, your belly, your heart & lungs, not to mention our active senses. Here is another perfect example of what being lost within one’s own mindscape sounds like.
The “Physical Reality ~ Human Minds divide” provides some valuable benchmarks to help on avoid this sort of horse puckie.
5:29
“I am a thing with a sentient self. There is something on the inside doing the experiencing, and it is me.”
It’s called your body and it has both an inside and an outside and it would be nothing if it did not exit in an active environment to sustain it. Your consciousness is the inside reflection of your body communicated with yourself. Get it yourself, there is only one of you, and you’re as real as real can be, at least until you die, your body stops doing it’s myriad of things and “You” turn back to dust.
5:45
Hang on a second! Look, even if you are kind of a lie –
This sounds like the lawyers rushing in to try and salvage social acceptability.
6:07
if there are other species in the universe – … are they self-aware?
It seems beyond imaging how an active creature could exist in a competitive environment with a level of self-awareness.
Turning the straightforward into a pretzel for entertainments sake.
7:45
Even if it’s all a facade, there is something on the inside that knows it’s a thing.
Pretentious, though sometimes even the blind squirrel find the nut.
And that is the cat’s pajamas.
That is the veritable lobster’s bottom.
Oh, and there’ll be hats, and free beer, and bouncy castles,
and I will see you there, carbon units.
Re-Se-Ve-Peh,
Byob,
now Ge-Te-Fe-Oh.
Jaunty classical music
