Does Man need for religion?

CC,

My views.

Yes, very good post. I really like your research abilities with the computer. What is Nature’s God? It is the laws of God. Nature’s God was what Jesus’ religion was all about. The Jefferson bible has the deity god cut out, removed by Jefferson. The easiest way to understand Jesus’ religion is the word “god” meant “knowledge”, not deity. Jesus and Mary taught the religion of Knowledge. They basically taught the known wisdom. A lot of teachings came from the Greeks and Buddhas. This wisdom was how to live and think using the laws of the Nature’s God. Or simply put, to be a good person and get along with your neighbors.

It seems to me that the two most successful religions ever in the history of mankind were capitalists’ in structure and operation. Both successful religions, the RA and the reincarnation religions taught that greed was bad and evil. RA controlled the knowledge and is no longer around. The reincarnation is still around and shares its knowledge. But both religions had the problem that greed could control the government. And that’s what Jesus’ system all about, using the religious governing system setup by the Greeks with one more control added. Jesus was a politician as well as a priest. And he was basically trying to set up the system he was going to use to govern. If it wasn’t for ruling change in Rome, Jesus would have governed the people of Israel.

Jefferson and the founding fathers were looking at the do the same sort of thing. And like Jesus, wanted the best system for governing the people. They both backed religion. And they both wanted a religion with no deity. Paul never understood Jesus’ goals. Took Jesus’ teachings and used them, they became so popular in the northern territories that they were only second in size to the religion of The Learned. Problem was that Paul believed in deities and the old Jewish religions and never understood the Greek religions or thinking. The Learned religion is were Mary move their religion of Knowledge to. This Jesus stuff we are talking about was all destroyed by the Church and erased from history three-hundred years later. And it is just now being pieced back together. So, there is very little data on the subject.

Point being, the successful socialist countries are still using the backbone of the America system. And are basically around because of people’s dislike for greed. But greed goes wherever people go. And I think this socialist movement in America is fueling the Christian Movement. The Christians see the socialists as greedy. Wanting to steal from the labor of the poor. Which it true. That is how a caste system works. And no doubt, socialism is a caste system. The capitalist system in America right now is suffering from giving in to a growing caste system. And that is the driving force of the political battles going on today and the reason Trump is in office.

CC,

I may have missed one thought I was going to put down. In America today, people don’t separate God from religion. They are one and the same. That was not the case with the founding fathers. They wanted to separate God the deity from having any power in the new government. But as you can see by the Jefferson bible, they still want to use religion.

AS for islam I do fine with it until I think of their proud tradition of Honor Killing their daughters and sisters and then I guess there’s also the images of hundreds of men endlessly prostrating themselves and mumbling sweet meaningless lies of repetition to some absolutist notion that has nothing to do with Nature’s God. Gotta admit that gets to my belly.

Me too!

You spend more time within the religion thing than I do. So, we’ll leave it at that.

That still leaves me with: “this socialist movement in America” is like so much else from the Right wing/libertarian crowd.

Smoke and mirrors intended to scare people, rather than any effort to understand or clarify. We are a “society”, without cooperation we can’t exist.

 

Also, when asked for a simple description of what you perceive “socialism” to be, we can expect gushers of words, but no simple straight constructive response.

 

Jesus was a socialist and a rebel against the people in charge. He instructed his followers to feed the poor and take care of them. But today’s Christians disregard those teachings and try to make Jesus into a conservative, reactionary, bully, not unlike themselves.

Here are some quotes proving it. Maybe you can find some quotes proving that Jesus was instead a selfish, conservative, bully who couldn’t enjoy a good meal unless he knew someone was starving, just like today’s reactionaries, otherwise known as Republicans.

(Incidentally, I have more quotes if you’d like to see them.)

Matthew 6:2-4 ESV /
“Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Acts 2:44-45 ESV /

And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

2 Corinthians 8:13-15 ESV /
For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.”

Galatians 6:2 ESV /
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Ephesians 4:28 ESV /
Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

Matthew 19:21 ESV /
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Luke 3:11 ESV /
And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

Acts 4:32-35 ESV /

Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need.

Acts 5:1-42 ESV /
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back for himself some of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. …

1 John 3:17 ESV /
But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?

Deuteronomy 14:28-29 ESV /
“At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do.

1 Corinthians 10:24 ESV /
Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.

Zechariah 11:12 ESV /
Then I said to them, “If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them.” And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.

Exodus 16:16-18 ESV /
This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Gather of it, each one of you, as much as he can eat. You shall each take an omer, according to the number of the persons that each of you has in his tent.’” And the people of Israel did so. They gathered, some more, some less. But when they measured it with an omer, whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack. Each of them gathered as much as he could eat.

Matthew 6:24 ESV /
“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

James 5:1-6 ESV /
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. …

Proverbs 28:8 ESV /
Whoever multiplies his wealth by interest and profit gathers it for him who is generous to the poor.

Psalm 112:9 ESV /
He has distributed freely; he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever; his horn is exalted in honor.

 

“I have not reached the point or had the need to research the socialist system. Right now, my understanding is that the system always has ended up under the control of greedy leaders. Just like the kings and religious ruling systems. Socialism is a new concept. The oldest socialist county is only about my age. And it is China. China management is socialism, but its economy has changed to the capitalist system. More time is needed to prove a socialist system works and will continual working for centuries.” – Mike

I only skim your posts Mike, because they are usually streams of consciousness. You start out correctly identifying the earliest known socialist programs in Rome, then make this statement. What Trump wants to do is label a political group. There are no pure democracies or pure anything political. There are socialist programs just about everywhere. Greed can crop up anywhere, corruption is rampant. Socialism doesn’t cause those.

True Lois. And, if you look a little harder, you can see how some authors were twisting that message. Of course, we don’t really know what came before things were written down, but I think the theory that there was a peaceful and inclusive message first can be supported by the text. Later books, like Timothy, introduced things like excluding women from preaching. 1 John also has some exclusionary stuff, although it’s hard to tell if he is saying “love everyone” or “only love those who agree with our tribe”. Bolding is mine.

 

God Is Love (this is the heading the ESV gives us)
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

 

The intention is hard to tell here. The idea of loving strangers and old enemies and including people you’d never met would be a new idea in the 1st century. There are parables of making up with old enemies and putting values of caring for all above tribal allegiances. There is also quite a bit about accepting Christ first, then you can get the love and support of the community. There’s enough of it for preachers today to justify doing just that anyway.

 

Cool collection, thank you Lois.

Unfortunately the right wing system has exactly the same effect. Just look at the United States right now. We have the too 1% more wealthy than the rest of the population combined. The rught wing has tradionally been against any government program that helps the unfortunate and downtrodden. They’ve been against unions that seek to give workers a fair shake. Which system is the most greedy? I say it is definitely the right wing and the further rigt wing they are, the more greedy they are. They make sure the country’s wealth goes straight into their pockets. What could be more greedy than that? It’s been said that a Republican can’t enjoy a good meal unless he knows someone is starving. IMO that perfectly sums up the right wing.

Mike Yohe wrote:

 

I am sure you have heard that socialism is just a step to communism.

Just as conservatism is just a step to fascism. Any political system is just a step to something worse. The answer is to keep it on an even keel.

what would Jesus be when he returns? A socialist or a capitalist?

@player

“what would Jesus be when he returns? A socialist or a capitalist?”

What about giving an outline of your opinion?

 

I would say he would be in favour of a redistribution of wealth downwards. What do you say about Patrick?

I think the idealized concept of Jesus would definitely want to improve things for the less fortunate by making the wealthy share their overabundance.

It’s important to promote a strong work ethic and not giving people a free ride through life, but since most people are victims of circumstances and genetics, they shouldn’t be punished due to bad luck. I imagine Jesus would also think that luck shouldn’t determine someone’s fate, so he’d probably agree.

But since Jesus’s dad is able to fix it all with a mere thought, the idea that Jesus needs to come fix things is puzzling.

 

I wouldn’t try to put modern labels on him.

The New Testament is a bit confusing. My overall impression is that he is politically supportive the status quo (very wise); Mark 12:17—“And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him”.

He is also silent on the evils of slavery.

Jesus says the greatest commandment is the first. IE to love god . Then he says: Mark 12:17 . “The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (not my upper case)

His message seems to be purely about personal improvement. He doesn’t seem overly concerned about the poor: Mark 14:17 " For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always."

Overall, Jesus does not come across to me as some kind of lefty reformer, wanting to destroy the status quo. He comes across as a fairly typical rabbi***, of his time who will fit with the political status quo, although he isn’t too thrilled with the Jewish priestly caste. It is they he upsets, not the Romans.

He NOT a firebrand; this one of the several major reasons Yeshua bar Yusuf could not have been the Messiah: He is to be a warrior king, like David. He is most certainly NOT divine and does not die young. The Jewish version of THEIR prophecy is very different from the cherry picked Christian version.

To answer your question: I really don’t know. Not enough information about the man Jesus for me to arrive at an informed opinion.

 

***arguably the most well known of Jesus’ teachings are “The Lord’s Prayer” and the sermon on the mount. Both are very Jewish. Don’t believe me? Do a search or ask a rabbi.

What was that about the eye of a needle rich man and camel??

I thought the christians say jesus is god

What was that about the eye of a needle rich man and camel??

"It is easier for a rich man to pass through they eye of camel camel----no, that’s not it.--------------it’s easier for a camel to pass through a rich man’s eye,----no that’s not it either. ----Ah; it’s easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than for a camel to enter the kingdom of heaven—almost got it------------ No I forget.

 

“I thought the christians say jesus is god”

 

Oh, indeedly doodly yes ,and the claim really annoys some Jews and Muslims don’t care for it either…

Seriously: Jesus Christ is both god and man. On one hand he is the only begotten son of God, and fully human.

One the other hand, Jesus is God, eternal and pre existing. He is one of the trinity who make up the Christian God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Please don’t ask me to explain the trinity. Whenever I asked a priest or clergy over the years, the response was always the same; “that’s a mystery of faith ,we just believe”. Well, they would never admit to a child especially that they didn’t know.

 

Below is the official statement of belief for Catholics (protestants don’t accept bits of it) It’s called “The Nicene Creed” and it has changed over the centuries.

"The Nicene Creed
Contemporary Version (Prepared by the International Consultation on English Texts)

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven,

By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered, died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father (and the Son)
Who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
Who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. "

 

 

The Nicene Creed (Greek: Σύμβολον τῆς Νικαίας or, τῆς πίστεως, Latin: Symbolum Nicaenum) is a statement of belief widely used in Christian liturgy. It is called Nicene /ˈnaɪsiːn/ because it was originally adopted in the city of Nicaea (present day İznik, Turkey) by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.[1] In 381, it was amended at the First Council of Constantinople, and the amended form is referred to as the Nicene or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.

 

 

Sacrificed himself to himself?

“Sacrificed himself to himself?”

YES

and NO . (both)

Confusing ain’t it.---------makes it easier to understand why all those clergy said (and still say as far as I know) . “it’s a mystery of the faith; we just believe.”

In the New testament:

(John 20:24–29) :

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 ¶ And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

The founder of Lutheran and misogynist turd, Martin Luther ,said of reason:

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”

― Martin Luther

 

It is not for nothing Christians are often called sheep.