I agree Nand as a non-scientist myself I can only offer my own take on this.
I looked up the definition of the term non-unitary systems and it seems to apply to energy conservation in open and closed systems,which gets very obtuse when aplied to the concept of “I think therefore I am”.
But my intuition tells me that the human biome is an open system that requires continual input of energy to maintain “self”, somewhat similar to the Earth’s biome that requires energy input from the sun to maintain “self”.
But IMO, “self-awareness” is one step beyond mere maintenance, it implies “volition”.
But more that that this sorta reminds me of that earlier thread I started about emotions with that Pathwaytohappiness since what the Dalai Llama said seems similar.
It just gets me thinking about how there is no inherent meaning and that how things makes us feel is pretty much use “doing it to ourselves” since the things have no emotional properties. I dunno, kinda makes it a little tough to navigate things since I’m just constantly reminded that the things I enjoy don’t “make” me happy “I do”. Same with other emotions. I’m not really sure what to think about that one, makes it sound like it’s my fault for feeling bad over stuff.
I’m also not sure if it’s a free will question or not. But it got me questioning what it means to like stuff and things like that along with saying “makes me feel”.
I know other people we’re bugged by it but i never really got past it.
Well this is what a Buddhist “friend” told me about Buddhism and the self:
"First, you have to look at the meaning of the word “exist”. In Buddhist reckoning, to “exist” means to ultimately exist, which means to be, but not depending on conditions. This would usually describe what people refer to as a soul, or in other words, a continuous being that does not change for a moment to moment or from lifetime to lifetime. Buddhism rejects that idea.
Buddhism says that nothing can be found that fits that description. So, it doesn’t mean you don’t exist, if means no thing exists that is you.
The “you” that “you” experience is a constantly changing but unique collection of causes and conditions.
If we say “my mind” or “my body” then who is the “me” we are referring to who owns this body and mind? It cannot be found.
I use the metaphor of two rivers such as the Mississippi river in the Amazon river. Compared with each other, we can say this is a unique river over here. That is a unique river over there. But within each river, there is no essence or river-ness that can be found that the components of the river belong to."
Who Is The Me? You know the answer.
You are the cumulative physical material biological stuff that makes up your living body - a part of that is your personality and how you interact and what those voices in your head are telling you.
The body and brain interacting with life creates your consciousness, your mind. It doesn’t get any more fundamental.
Your mind is fluid, it is the realm of the meta-physical world, and that is where the Buddha and his ideas resides. Jesus and his Bible, etc., are likewise meta-physical residents of your mind, your consciousness .
Brings us back to appreciation the Physical Reality ~ Human Mind divide.
Yes and in every human there is the essence of a human, as in every bat, there is the essence of a bat - although no two are alike.
Which reminds me that you haven’t changed a bit in 18 months. You can’t sort out the self from “Google University”. It doesn’t matter what all of these PhD’s say or what anyway else says, none of them know. We can talk about it, think about it, but if it’s upsetting to you then that’s something else, something to be dealt from an emotional perspective, not a scientific one.
Yeah, and in the end, he says
I know it’s a big claim to say that all these kinds of suffering are the result of a fictitious sense of self.
So he is making a claim. He hasn’t proven anything. He doesn’t have it all worked and he’s the big professor.
Well I thought I did but a lot has challenged that notion…I’ve posted all of it so far.
I know that, but I can’t help but think about what that guy said about the “who” it is referring to, like some separate self or soul. I dunno, I don’t really have an answer for his line of questioning.
Ummm, essence might be a strong word, but I guess there might be something to it. I can’t really say right now.
On some level I get that, but my problem is not having answers to some of these challenges and because of that I can feel my own perspective eroding when it comes to defining the self and if it exists.
Unless it’s animals I don’t really read much so all this has thrown me for a loop.
And it’s a bit odd how in the same article he talks about how “why no one in psychology is talking about this”. Maybe PhD doesn’t mean “right”.
Though the part about him saying all suffering is because of clinging to a sense of self and that quote by the wu wei dude at the end does give me concern. It was similar to that other guy from StackExchange that I referenced. It makes it sound like it’s my fault for “Choosing” suffering, even though the notion of getting rid of my self is doing that now.
REminds me of when I first read about Buddhism, only now it feels like I’m just finding more evidence against the self that it feels like denying it is denying reality. But I don’t really know…
There’s just so much in my head about this with different people who said different things about it and I can’t really make sense of it. Every now and then a thought comes where I think they’re right, like how Buddhism mentions the self being aggregates and this morning I thought about how the instant reactions I have to thoughts on this is a fleeting sensation and from that I guess I wondered if that applied to everything else in my life, which had me doubting the notions of a self and wondering if they were right. I tried to stabilize but I was finding it hard to argue and it felt like denying reality.
Like I said I can’t really make much sense of it and I feel like I’m fighting a losing battle.
Here’s an analogy. A person who is not feeling good, tired, maybe a stomach problem, asks a friend about it, and the friends tells him about diet and exercise. He’s never heard of that so he tries it for a couple days and doesn’t feel any better. He reads about diets, even a book titled “Diets Don’t Work”. He goes back to his friend and says he’s confused about it. This goes on for years. The guy never sticks to any plan, any healthy diet, or any regular diet. He now knows all about different diets, but he doesn’t apply his knowledge. He blames the confusing array of diet advice for his problems.
You, you hear things about the “self” and are troubled by it, including Buddhists, like the Dalai Lama saying it’s all in your mind. What you don’t do is read a book like “The Art of Happiness”, you don’t meditate or do any of the mind-calming practices that the Dalai Lama recommends. You don’t stick to any mental health regimen or take the advice of people who are recognized as helpful. Instead, you try to figure out why they are all wrong.
Yeah I know it says Christian all over this, it works just as well for the material evolutionary scientifically studied wonders that are all around us.
The point is there’s a beauty to respecting mysteries that are simply beyond our earth-bound, body/mind bound understanding.
I’ve been doing meditation every night to calm myself and to try to do better. But the questions about self still bug me. Like one conversation I had where his replies were:
" My point is Buddhism is sceptical about our intuitions about the self . You are taking labels like individuality, self, identity, continuity, identity, as being clear & beyond debate. Buddhism says, no, investigate them, on the mat, through meditation. Don’t let others define you, enquire within. No conventional self, in that who wakes up isn’t quite the same as who went to sleep, because you depend on causes & conditions. In each moment we are awake to, we redefine our selves."
““who wakes up is the same as who went to sleep” “I know I’m different from when I was a kid” Reconcile these. “how we define ourselves is based on the past and our experience” Undoubtedly. And also, on what we do next, right, which will become part of our past & our experience too. Our intuition is that we are the ‘same’ person as when we were a kid, yet you admitted you aren’t. Continuity is a matter of degree, but that’s not a small matter, it can change everything.”
"Each day we wake up, we put on who we think we are like putting on clothes we find around us. Nothing wrong with that. But remember, you are not your clothes. You are not your past, those things shape what you wake up to, but fundamentally you are free, each moment, to change. We like to ignore that. But however unkind you have been, you can be kind. However unwise you have been, you can begin striving to be wise. In Buddhism they say, in this very moment you can turn your cart. This is our freedom, not to have a different past, but to define our future. "
Especially the last part about putting on who we think we are, but I can’t help but feel it’s more complicated than that even if I can’t put it into words.
They aren’t the exact same thing, or we wouldn’t have two different words
AI Overview
+3
The mind is the collection of mental processes that allow us to think, feel, and perceive, while consciousness is the awareness of those processes. Consciousness is a subjective experience that’s part of the mind.
Mind
The mind is the sum of all mental processes, including thinking, feeling, perception, and reasoning
The mind is responsible for directing and influencing physical and mental behavior
The mind is closely related to personality and self-consciousness
Consciousness
Consciousness is the awareness of one’s own thoughts, feelings, and surroundings
Consciousness is a subjective experience that can’t be observed or measured by others
Consciousness is what gives us the ability to introspect and reflect on ourselves
Relationship between mind and consciousness
Consciousness is a subset of the mind, as it’s a specific aspect of the mental processes that take place in the brain
Consciousness is inextricably joined with the mind, making it almost impossible to separate the two
That is my understanding of sleep and anesthesia.
But interestingly, homeostasis remains active in unconsciously controlling the biochemical processes that keep the body’s chemistry in balance.
It’s also evidence that your body operates you, and not the other way around.
That’s why that half a billion years of evolution are so important to us.
Also why I see consciousness as a spectrum, way more complex and layered, than the all or nothing way many discuss it.
What are the different stages of sleep?
The period between first falling asleep and entering the next stage of sleep is known as sleep onset. This is a period of very light sleep, where you are drifting in and out of consciousness and are easily woken.
In stage 2, the functioning of the brain slows down but there are still short bursts of activity. This light-sleep stagemakes up about half of a total sleep cycle.
Stage 3 is a deep-sleep phase where things like noise don’t disturb the person’s sleep so easily.
The deep-sleep stage is followed by the REM stage, which is when we dream and our sleep becomes lighter again.
When this stage ends, a new sleep cycle starts. As the night continues, the REM stages become longer and the deep-sleep stages become shorter. Some people completely or partially wake up after a sleep cycle ends, while others stay asleep until morning.
Many organisms exhibit different levels of consciousness according to their evolutionary time frame.
This 'self-referential information processing" begins very early, perhaps even before abiogenesis. Note the dynamical reversible reactions between pure non-biological chemicals. The beginning of self-referential systems.
Example:
Obviously, this does not start as a conscious process but, depending on the environment, as a form of homeostasis, and in the case of complex biochemical organisms it appears that the chemical reciprocal 'sensitivity" (heliotropism) can evolve into “sensory experience” (see evolution of the eye), which then further evolves in a conscious process of perception and thought.
All these evolutionary processes happen over time, including the evolution of the environmental dynamics which places pressure on the status quo and results in “natural selection” of “best adapted” species.
