What is there not to like when the physiology clearly demonstrates the facts of extracorporeal existence.
DALLAS – Nov. 02, 2023 – Researchers led by a team at UT Southwestern Medical Center have developed a device that can isolate blood flow to the brain, keeping the organ alive and functioning independent from the rest of the body for several hours.
The device, tested using a pig brain model and described in Scientific Reports, could lead to new ways to study the human brain without influence from other bodily functions. It also could inform the design of machines for cardiopulmonary bypass that better replicate natural blood flow to the brain.
I think you’re the one who’s stuck here. What you said has nothing to do with what is being talked about. Do you always try to tie in irrelevant concepts? There is no “observer” that would imply some sort of ghost in the machine a la dualism, which neuroscience has sufficiently debunked.
And? A brain in a vat still means there is something else outside of me giving me the data. There is also an outside world where they get the data from that they are then feeding to said brain. No matter how you slice it it doesn’t prove Descartes brain in a vat idea, if anything it disproves it.
Never mind that Descartes idea never gets around to proving a self but just assumes the conclusion. Either way this is getting nowhere.
None of this is worth taking seriously though since it’s just one in a long line of “what if’s” with no proof. Every time someone says I “could be” a brain in a vat I just roll my eyes and move on. Useless concept with useless implications, unless you have proof I am then shut up. Even if I was, so what? What then?
This is perhaps the only intelligent thing you’ve said so far, but at least it buries anything they try to think on their forum. We are the brain, more or less, though I didn’t need this to realize that.
I can’t explain it myself either. I feel like the answer is dancing outside of my awareness, also likely insecurity since I don’t know exactly what is wrong with what he is saying so I’m looking elsewhere for input.
Like take this in the same lesson:
"You will likely want to listen to this audio multiple times.
This exercise introduces you to being skeptical of some of your thoughts and what comes out of your mouth. A statement like, “That driver pisses me off” doesn’t add up. Yes, our attention is on the driver, and we got angry. But not everyone one responds the same way to the same event. What else is going on? There must be something within each person that causes them to create their own specific emotions. It is your beliefs that are central to creating your emotions most of the time.
You likely don’t see them yet. And you won’t if you are busy hypnotizing your self with the idea that “that driver is making me……” As long as you are believing that false statement, then your mind doesn’t look for the real answer.
Begin to acknowledge that some of the things that you are telling yourself might not be true. This builds a key skill of skepticism.
An emotional reaction is actually created this way
Stimulus – other drive made a careless lane change
Belief system unconscious interpretation
– I could have been hurt – Fear
– That was reckless and stupid – Judgmental blame
– He should be punished/hurt so he doesn’t do it again – anger
– survival fight/flight response – emotions of fear and anger
Begin looking for the interpretation from your belief system as the source of your emotions."
My problem with saying it’s anything unconscious is that we can’t really test it because we aren’t aware of it. But I still think that it’s more than just belief system, because how does that belief system get formed to begin with? What happens when we feel something in spite of the belief system? Our beliefs influence our experience of reality true, but the reverse is also true. Our experience of reality shapes our beliefs. Like if you get robbed by a black person then you’ll believe they’re generally bad people.
I guess it’s hard for me to nail down why he’s wrong because beliefs and emotions are tricky and complicated and a lot goes into them. He’s taking one piece and thinking it’s the whole pie when it’s a LOT more than that. I guess that’s why it’s hard to explain it, because there are so many factors and even things we aren’t aware of that all play into this.
He can’t explain how these beliefs “Create” emotions though, since like I said they are just words so how can they create these emotions? What gives them this power? I mean people have written whole books and done experiments to figure this stuff out and it’s still tricky. My question is how does he know it’s beliefs and not something else? The whole point of science is being able to isolate these things to figure out the cause. Beliefs play a role sure but they’re not the only thing.
[quote=“inthedarkness, post:262, topic:10660”]
A brain in a vat still means there is something else outside of me giving me the data.
YES, all data comes from outside the brain via neural connections just like the illustration.
Take the data stream away (from any source) away and the brain goes mad. This is documented from over-exposure to sensory deprivation.
When deprived of sensation, the brain attempts to restore sensation in the form of hallucinations.[2]
There is also an outside world where they get the data from that they are then feeding to said brain. No matter how you slice it it doesn’t prove Descartes brain in a vat idea, if anything it disproves it.
No, it confirms that all new data comes from outside the brain and without the data the brain creates its own uncontrolled hallucinations.
[quote=“inthedarkness, post:262, topic:10660”]
This is perhaps the only intelligent thing you’ve said so far, but at least it buries anything they try to think on their forum.
We are the brain, more or less, though I didn’t need this to realize that.
There is no alternative.
IMO. believing in “elan vital” is not “intelligent” thinking!
But there is still an outside world, or in this case of sensory deprivation something outside of me that is interfering with sensation.
Again no matter how you slice it there is still an outside of me affecting me, even if that is severing communication. Even that wiki article doesn’t prove much, that floating man argument is nonsense in light of modern neuroscience (in fact a lot of ancient philosophy is).
Again stop with pointless topics and questions, you aren’t getting anywhere and are just avoiding the main topic.
Write is persistent. As long as you engage him, he will respond with something. So, you can add another person on to your list of people you argue with, but, I don’t recommend it. It’s Springtime. Get some sun.
You’re right, I guess I got something useful from them.
I think this has to do with my thinking process. Like I have to vet everything someone says before I can write them off. But then I’m also afraid that I’ll encounter a situation where they might be right and then I’ll have to follow and listen to them.
When I think that beliefs create emotions I think that it then becomes my fault for why I feel the way that I feel and not someone or something else, which goes to his thing about blaming people feeling right. That it’s my fault for effectively choosing to feel bad or not. He says otherwise in his posts but that is effectively the conclusion to saying anything is a choice.
Yet despite all my cerebral protestations I can’t shake what he’s said from my mind, nor can I shake the notion he might be right. It’s a special flavor of hell for me and I’m getting no help from the dude who caused it, mostly because he denies its the words and it’s all me.
I honestly don’t know what to do. If I could prove it wrong then it might help, but that’s my approach to anything, if I can’t prove it wrong them I’m stuck in suffering. I know not everything in my life can be like that, not everything can be definitively proven wrong but letting go is not my strong suit. It feels like giving up because you have no answer, it is to admit defeat.
[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:268, topic:10660”]
Brain in a vat is a mind experiment - metaphor on top of metaphor.
Not any longer. They have been able to separate the brain from the body and keep it functioning while completely separated from the body. There was brain activity for several hours.
Who knows what that brain experiences while separated. from the body. Does it still think? Does it still experience emotion? Without artificial sensory input, it won’t know where it is.
Where else did I get it from? You can’t get something from nothing, there is no outside or inner me there is just me. Stop wasting people’s time with pointless thought experiments.
You realize this ironically disproves the brain in a vat right?
You’re a fool to believe objectivity exists, that said nothing you said has been relevant.
It always amazes me how well you can compartmentalize and partition.
The literal brain in a van, isn’t a “human brain” any more than an embryo is a person. It’s a piece of flesh being pumped full of chemicals to keep it from decomposing, . . . for a few hours. It might teach lessons about aspects of neural mechanism, but expecting insights on the working human body/brain/mind (that is always interacting) seems an overreach.
It’s an technological artifact. Well, it’s also an indication that some of us truly have become Gods. Too bad all we know is tinkering and repeating, shall we say, counterproductive choices.
What we do know is that brain is awash, (imagine the pingpong ball being held aloft on a column of air blowing out of a vacuum cleaner hose), of neural networks and chemical cascades and more, a nonstop stream of input and output from and to environment & body.
What’s the brain going to do when half of itself is obliterated?
It me it’s like wondering what’s going to happen if I hold this animals head under water?
I don’t get the question or even the frame of reference.
Why not just get physical with ourselves? Learn about the whole physical creature that your mind possesses? It offers much more fertile ground for the mindscape, at least in my experience.
Not just what it is now, but try to get into awareness of the regressions of generations that went into making your body, which is producing that mind that you are using to think about yourself with.
Starting from the bottom up with an evolutionary approach is the best way to begin understanding the web that we are enmeshed in. A genuine awareness of that, would help us make less self-destructive choices, individually and as a society.
The whole body as an unconscious cognitive data processor is only valid at the cellular level within the cytoplasm and cytoskeleton.
But the “mind” is located in the brain, not in your toes. In your toes you have sensors that inform the brain and the emerging “mindfulness” from that “information” and the production of “action potentials” happens only in the brain
I’m afraid that you are not separating the conscious data processing from the unconscious data collection.
Well it would at least allow us to test things we normally wouldn’t be able to.
But Write is, as usual, asking the wrong questions about this development. I would question if there are any ethical components to testing on these live human brains, and furthermore the question of personhood might come up as well.
Write, the brain is not partitioned off from the rest of the body.
You let words confuse you. Unconsciousness is not no-consciousness!
By your definition nothing but humans are conscious.
But the body is set up with neural shot cuts, stub that toe and it reacts faster than the messages can travel to the brain and back.
Wasn’t science rocked in recent decades by the realization of the brain-gut connection?
Your love for compartmentalizing and isolating is not your friend.
That doesn’t make sense.
The eyes and ears and skin start processing the data before sending the signals down the line.
Your emotional state influences everything that’s happening to you, and so on.
That might be true for an Octopus with 9 brains (8 + 1), but in humans with a single brain sever the spinal cord and the brain is totally excluded from the homeostatic system.
I don’t see why this should be controversial.
Mind-body connection is built into brain, study suggests
Findings point to brain areas that integrate planning, purpose, physiology, behavior, movement
by Tamara Bhandari•April 19, 2023
Calm body, calm mind, say the practitioners of mindfulness. A new study by researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis indicates that the idea that the body and mind are inextricably intertwined is more than just an abstraction.
The study shows that parts of the brain area that control movement are plugged into networks involved in thinking and planning, and in control of involuntary bodily functions such as blood pressure and heartbeat. The findings represent a literal linkage of body and mind in the very structure of the brain.
Kinda hard to take that seriously given the usage of mind. Didn’t we find out there is no such thing as mind and it’s just the brain? Stuff like “mind-body connection” is not only testing the wrong thing but seems to skirt too close to woo territory.
The functional linkage is physical only through the neural connections . Sever the connection and the linkage is broken.
This is why a broken neck can result in total loss of feeling in the body. When the neural linkage is broken, data cannot reach the brain, nor can the brain communicate with the lower body. Your body becomes a useless vehicle that requires mechanical assistance.
Note that the head (not the brain) itself has sensory organs like eyes, nose, ears, connected by neurons that allows the brain to experience the environment or even communicate, but that does not involve the rest of the body.
Theoretically, Descartes was correct.
Apparently, they have been able to maintain an actively conscious brain for several hours, completely separate from the body (pig) and suspended in a vat (artificial skull).
Life span separated from body is secondary. We already keep brains functional and oxygenated by artificial means and that is pure mechanics.
We already use artificial limbs that we can control with our brains. Why not an entire body?
Putting a brain in an actual vat for a few hours is not the “brain in a vat” thought experiment. We need more like a Turing Test. Isolate the brain, send it signals to simulate a world, give it a means to communicate, then inquire of it. Does it think it is having actual experiences? Does its experience compare with ours?
