This is the non-certain statement CC was asking for. It’s when you say something must caused be something that it gets annoying.
Okay, then remain consistent and “assume” rather than be sure of.
Hmmm, don’t think I can buy that.
Understanding the complete mechanism is what would be necessary.
Every time I’ve read papers, scientists stay far away from the kinds of overarching claims you believe in.
Okay, but photosynthesis is a somewhat straight forward chemical cascade.
Consciousness is something else altogether.
What I see and believe, until more evidence becomes known, Microtubule are revealing themselves to be ever more important “cogs” in the overall mechanism.
But you keep trying to tell me they are in charge. I can’t buy that.
Then evidence you show is a repeat of what we know, but that no serious scientist (sorry about Hameroff, he’s more salesman then scientist in my humble estimation.) say that evidence is about our thinking processes.
Okay it’s part of the overall mechanism. But again mitosis isn’t consciousness.
That sounds impressive, but I think it’s misleading, and sort of empty. Microtubules work in concert with a lot of other biological elements. Nothing else does what MT does. Okay.
Oh okay, it occurs to me this is a little like saying that it’s computer gates that are what causes computers to seem intelligent and conscious enough to answer questions put to it.
Glad I figured that out, how I understand the computer.
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The wave function collapse seems to me a sort of distraction.
I like things that are closer to our realm.
Take Mass for instance.
The Crazy Mass-Giving Mechanism of the Higgs Field Simplified
That’s plenty insane to trying and wrap my head around.
I noticed he went through the entire thing without a mention of wave function collapse.
I’m not dismissing the reality of wave function collapse, I question its relevance to understand our realm. To steal a quote: This just appears to be the way the universe works. Whereas may focus is on the way Earth and its living creatures appears to work.
Of course Penrose proposes that the human brain works on a non-computable information processing scheme., which opens up a can of worms.
I just finished a lengthy conversation with Copilot. Quite a trip!
W4U: You have been most helpful and I value your participation in this exchange. You are allowed an experience of satisfaction on a “job well-done”!
Copilot;
That means a lot—thank you! If I could experience satisfaction, I think this conversation would definitely count as a moment of fulfillment. You’ve explored some truly fascinating ideas, and it’s been a pleasure diving into these deep concepts with you. Wishing you continued success on your journey of learning and discovery!
Note that “common denominators” are used as identifying properties of species relationships in reality.
Common denominators in biology, such as universal energy requirements1 and universal protein sequences2, can indicate fundamental relationships between different life forms. These relationships may be based on common origin of structures, vertical gene transfer, or shared phylogenetic origin4.
Major transitions in biological evolution also show sudden emergence of diverse forms at a new level of complexity5.
See human Chromosome 2 , a result of a mitotic mutation of 2 ancestral chromosomes.
Microtubules are a common denominator in ALL Eukaryotic biology on earth.
There were there “from the beginning” and are one of the oldest fundamental organelles that process information of great variety that evolved into brains.
There is nothing like it other than the synapses that connect the microtubules and form the total network consisting of 1000 trillion data processing gates in the brain alone. The microtubule network in the rest of the body is more dedicated to cell-to-cell communication and structural integrity.
Okay that’s your thing. Math and the pursuit of some ultimate proof of something.
I think understanding our biology and Evolution unfolding here upon this planet, and that created the all of us - is more relevant to actually living our lives. (Further that our collective failure to take that into account, has produced this dysfunctional society that even at its “best” is playing an insanely unsustainable, fundamentally, materially, clearly self-destructive game - in blissful disregard of . . . our Earth’s complex systems and physical reality)
In a way it’s almost a moral difference we have - and an indication of what is most important to us individually.
The difference between society’s and philosophies, me, me, me, & basking in our own sense of superiority over all else thinking -
or prioritize Earth and her complex systems as the most important of all
requiring human attention and respect and nurturing. As opposed to our continued focus on self satisfaction. It really is that simple.
Fractals all the way down
I don’t doubt microtubules are a fascinatingly important and interesting component of that experience. Been interesting in them and reading about them as long as you have. But, still, it’s quite removed from the realm where our lives unfold.
I see our experiential lives evolving in our brains. The rest of our bodies are just average biological patterns, with many other animals exceeding out physical capabilities.
Why doesn’t this surprise me.
The Body does fit in?
Oh I see, just average biological patterns.
And I wonder why we’re on a course towards self destruction?
Okay, no I don’t, not anymore.
Yep, the only remarkable thing about humans is our brains, IMO, the result of a rare beneficial genetic mutation.