David Bohm -Dalai Lama conversation

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21

INFINITE POTENTIAL

Here’s a 2022 version:

YouTube: Otoriteyi Sorgula

(…and the price is right.)

Correct, no argument—but that’s all it is. It’s mathematics.

What does it offer to a living person who’s trying to make sense of all their conflicting emotions, desires, guilt, fear, love, death, inadequacy, and so on?

Can you show me anything in that video that actually helps us humans unravel and start making sense of our “Consciousness”?

“Infinite Potential”—in our physical realm? Try imaging it.

How about doing the best we can with what we have?

We need Infinite Understanding.
Not in a literal sense, but in the form of a deeper dive into deep time—into how Earth evolved our bodies, and where we acquired this or that feature.

Understanding the peace found in realizing:
“I am a filament in Earth’s Evolution.”

Okay, rather than infinite understanding, how about a solid foundation in the fundamentals?
Let’s begin with a deep appreciation for the Physical Reality ~ Human Mind divide, and everything that flows from it.

That approach leads to an appreciation of the partnership between one’s body/brain and mind.

An aside - Recently, I’ve started writing my memoir, so I’ve been more focused on my early childhood memories than ever before. I’ve come to remember that, since my Audubon days, I’ve had this sense of my body as a separate entity from “me.” My body possessed knowledge, awareness, with a will and abilities beyond what I could reach with my mind alone.

In my twenties, I realized that my body took better care of me, than I did of it. That realization deepened my respect. Which in turn, had me paying more attention to the signals my body sent to my mind, inevitably getting better at care of myself.

Later, I dove into learning about the pageant of Evolution, which continues adding to increasing insights along with a sense of being grounded, that no religion can offer.}

Back to the video.

In these discussions, there is almost never any mention of Evolution—none in this one. Let alone any deeper dive into the biological foundation of our consciousness. It’s alway staring at the unreachable tiny, or cosmic - what about Earth?

When can we start realizing and discussing, that Earth is the root of it all: our physical body and brain getting on with the business of living creating our consciousness and sense of self. Same as it ever was with every creature that has roamed this miracle planet.

I don’t understand why this is left out.
Please—can you explain why Earth seems so trivial to so many great minds?

Why doesn’t anyone mention the accepted biological reality that it is our bodies, in the act of living, that produce our thoughts… and it is our thoughts that produce our sense of self?

Show me anything in that video that genuinely relates to our humanity—or offers tips for gaining deeper insight into ourselves. Grand notions and math can’t help us understand who we are.

I apologize. There was a time when this sort of thing sounded more interesting to me.
But there’s nothing in it to help me understand anything of importance—to help me/us live on this planet and deal with other humans and with myself.

That’s why, for me, this never gets past mind-candy.
It’s intellectual entertainment. And not coincidentally, it’s been one heck of a nice ride for these celebrity thinkers we’ve come to know and love.

In what context?

For what purpose?

What’s with the Infinite Potential ?

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Okay, so none of this is supposed to actually relate to humans living their lives?
Guess that’s the point I’m confused about.

Like what do your words, up there, do to help us understand our consciousness?

Or is human consciousness another discussion altogether?

My problem with the Infinite Potential video (all the others like it) boils down to discussing human consciousness without ever discussing Earth, or Evolution, or the fact that we humans are biological evolved sensing creatures.

Understanding our human consciousness requires appreciating the reality, that it is our bodies that produce our consciousness - and it is a half billion years of evolution that created the body you inhabit. That understanding changes your mind’s relationship with that body of yours, to the better.
That’s first base towards making sense of the human that you are and that I am. Nothing else about us can truly make sense until we’ve achieved such a fundamental insight.

23

Not understanding this question.. altogether another discussion from what? A discussion of consciousness can be had without discussing the details of biology or chemistry, but it can’t be separated completely from them. If you are discussing human consciousness, you are discussing humans, who evolved on earth, from the biological forces over a very long time, from chemical reactions, that have a mathematical description, the physics of it.

Discussing any of those can be done without including every detail of the other, but it can’t be done without those details existing. Conversely, all details of everything can’t be included in every discussion. That’s why I don’t understand the question.

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That is like saying “its gravity” and we know what the mathematical mechanics of gravity does. Its the same with all mathematically based universal mechanics.

They must behave in a consisten logical manner, as universal dynamics allow, and the only logical functional mechanics that we know and are permitted to use are those that can be mathematically expressed.
When we use the wrong mathematics, they don’t work.

But the head engineer of the Rover lander about the maths involved, observed that they only used a part of the complete vector equations (they simulated them thousands of times), because it was mathematically “good enough”. And it was.

This is why in a dynamic environment, the maths are can only be approximated when not all the forces can be identified.
A tree wants to grow perfectly vertical, but a single twig of a shrub in the way of a very young sapling may make it grow just a little bit crooked, but straight enough.

Which reminds of Newton’s theory of Gravity, which works on earth but was replaced with Einstein’s Theory of Relativity which works universally.

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Perhaps you are looking at it too narrowly in strictly human consciousness terms.

There are animals that have much keener consciousness of the enviroment.
Bloodhounds can smell (are conscious of) single molecules. Eagles have 10 times the acuity of vision than humans, Cats can sense air motion of a moving mouse through their whiskers. Even bacteria have quorum sensing. Plants are conscious of the sun.
Almost all Eukaryotes on Earth are conscious of the environment to a degree.

It just that humans are more intelligent and conscious of self, and have the ability of anticipation and long term planning. But all life seems to have come from a single LUCA.

26

Lausten that is a nothing response!

You bring it right back to my basic question - point to me where that talk has anything to offer to a living human being dealing with the struggles of a human life?

Fancy ideas, great for the staying up all night talks “saving the world” - trust me, I know the excitement and fun in that - but then we wake up the next day, where does that discussion relate to anything happening in a real person’s life and thoughts and struggles.

That’s what I’m asking?

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Or heck point to what you believe is of value within that video.

What are your take away quotes?

And what did you find valuable in those quotes that constructively relate to your active life?

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It’s a request for clarification, under any understanding of the English language. But anyway.

If you want a simple answer, yes, human consciousness is a whole 'nother discussion all together.

So, no, I can’t point to something in the video that offers practical advice or…

29

This may be of interest.

Deep Brain Consciousness

In a recent experiment, people who were already undergoing deep brain electrode implantation therapy for severe headaches were shown an icon on a screen. The icon was designed to be consciously perceived only about 50 percent of the time.

The researchers asked participants to move their eyes in a specific way to indicate whether or not they noticed the icon. Simultaneously, the scientists recorded neural activity in multiple brain regions during the task, including the thalamus and the prefrontal cortex.

They found that brain activity when participants were aware of the icon was [earlier and stronger in the thalamus than in the cortex]
Brain Structure That Filters Consciousness Identified | Scientific American?

Therefore, the main thesis is formulated as follows: it is believed that the physical Universe, its laws, and structure should be described from quantum principles (D. Wheeler et al.), which is now being done (theories of the quantum birth of the Universe [84].

The entire psyche or a significant part of it is a reflection of the Universe as reality and, to some extent, its modeling, i.e. reproduction. Thus, the reflection of the phenomena of the external world also obeys quantum mechanical laws, reproducing the laws of nature.

Therefore, the principles of the psyche reflect not only the phenomena of reality, but also the laws governing these phenomena, and this reflection, in turn, turns out to be isomorphic to the fundamental physical principles.

Then the answer to the question about the reason for the emer-gence and
existence of two different hemispheres of the brain is formulated as follows: the need to reflect the observed reality, which is additional at its core, necessitated the emergence of a quantum modeling mental substrate that uses the same laws. This is directly indicated by the holographic nature of information processing in brain structures [17].

Have you ever considered how and why nearly all cellular organisms have evolved
mathematical abilities to process natural mathematical equations and mechanics, regardless of the presence of a neural network? There must have been a need and an advantage, else the slime mold would not be able utilize mathematical processes in its remarkable ability to solve naturally occurring equations, such as planting a sign “I’ve been here before”, thereby avoiding already visited dead ends in a maze.

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Because the universe requires an exquisite exactitude or today’s complexity could never have succeeded.

Everything within the material world can be reduced to mathematics. Some treat that to mean that math is God or something, others like myself, believe it is simply the nature of the beast, and that the real magic to the wonder of it all, is contained within the living world.

Why should the “mathematics” impress me more than the actual physical processes unfolding over time and creating this incomparable living planet we exist within?

I ask because it seems to me that is what you are expecting.

As for this, . . .
Guess I’m curious doesn’t the scale thing impress you at all?

I mean Bohm obsesses over a what’s happening at a realm that is unimaginably removed from this biological material macroscopic realm we are born out of, and exist within.

Recall, “the Planck scale is to an atom, as a tree is to the entire observable Universe” Brian Greene

How can any of the magic that happens down there in the quantum realm, have anything to do with how consciousness unfolds within our bodies?

Riddle me that.

========================================

And how is it that fleeting imagined connection (whatever it might be) deserves to out-scream us enthusiastically learning about the biology that created these bodies we exist within, and that creates the consciousness we all struggle with?

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You are right. I consider all evolution by natural selection as proof of functional survival skill.
And secondarily as proof of the mathematical nature of universal physical mechanics that allows for mathematical solutions to natural physical interactions.

But that is the point. Bohm obsessed at scales that were mathematically Implicated before they were even manifest as physical reality at any level.

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Not that I’m denying that the quantum realm makes itself felt in stuff such as the Brownian motion that ‘living’ molecules exist within. But consciousness grows out of way more than Brownian motion and Quantum behavior.

And to get at that something more, requires a biological perspective, which in turn requires a deep dive into Evolution.

33

That is what we are talking about. But consider this.
What is consciousness? It is cognition of certain environmental conditions, both outside and inside the body.

And IMO, this cognition rests on noticing differences and conscious animals make selection based on those diferences. Sometimes the selection of an option is in error.

Lemurs don’t know anything about human numbers, but they do cognize “more” from “less” and will select “more” if the choice is advantageous. But some Lemurs play it safe and select the "sure’ thing v. a gamble and that is already exercising choice and making rudimentary calculations. They are subconsciously using maths correctly.
The rest is evolution for sensory detail and nuance.

I have demonstrated this many times via examples of impaired color and auditory cognition, and the “discovery” (cognition) of previously unexperienced sensory reception, along with its revelatory emotion. All of this involves the cognition of mathematical interaction of physical values, be it conscious or sub-concious as in body’s homeostatsic control system.

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That’s a leading question. Bohm was marginalized in his time. Connecting quantum mechanics to consciousness is mostly talked about in Deepak Chopra type circles. Until you can show me this “out screaming”, I can’t answer that question.

Write4U’s premise is that everything is connected, and I won’t argue that. Nor will I bother attempting to come up with a mathematical model for why I should care about a person who is arrested without due process. My reasons for that are based on recent history and feelings of empathy that don’t require that much examination.

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Seems to me there were excellent reasons for marginalizing his self-indulgent thoughts, that are basically a dead-end when it comes to dealing with the reality of our macroscopic biological reality.

“Implications” is something we do within our thinking processes.

The best it offers is a soundbite “Infinite Potential” - which if you spend much time musing on it, is also a dead-end indulgence.

Yeah, of course atoms have infinite potential to become everything we are aware of - even our thoughts, which are ultimately produced by atoms, but aren’t atoms in and of themselves. There’s your infinite potential - It’s not about unlocking a secret layer of nature. That is a humbug.

And I notice that this apparently makes no impression:
What about the implication of this reality:

That I find singificant.

1 Like
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Yessssss…, but thinking is cognition of inherent potentials and “that which may become reality”!

Note that at the quatum level here is not yet physical reality, but only fields of
quanta of values, but physical reality was already implicated billions of years into the future.

And that is what mathematics are able to predict. Mathematics are timeless and reach into infinity. We just haven’t discovered all of them yet.
Chaos Theory describes the observed self-forming patterns evolving from EM fields, ie. E = MC^2

And explicated physical reality is still unfolding _-------->

I love this new developing science of CDT. (Causal Dynamical Triangulation), which predicts that at Planck level quanta alreadty begin to form fractals.

Causal Dynamical Triangulations and the Quest for Quantum Gravity

J. Ambjorn, J. Jurkiewicz, R. Loll

Quantum Gravity by Causal Dynamical Triangulation has over the last few years emerged as a serious contender for a nonperturbative description of the theory.

It is a nonperturbative implementation of the sum-over-histories, which relies on few ingredients and initial assumptions, has few free parameters and - crucially - is amenable to numerical simulations. It is the only approach to have demonstrated that a classical universe can be generated dynamically from Planckian quantum fluctuations.

At the same time, it allows for the explicit evaluation of expectation values of invariants characterizing the highly nonclassical, short-distance behaviour of spacetime.

As an added bonus, we have learned important lessons on which aspects of spacetime need to be fixed a priori as part of the background structure and which can be expected to emerge dynamically.
[1004.0352] Causal Dynamical Triangulations and the Quest for Quantum Gravity

And if any of that interests you this video is a must, in order to get a taste of the simple elegance of mathematical functions, even if the mathematical equations seem complicated. I suggest to concentrate on the narrative, rather than trying to understand the calculus. The narrator loves his job and I can empathize with that.

And to answer your question:
It ends with the evolution of the eye’s sensitivity to colors (cones and rods), which apparently function at very fine scales and imply the use of microtubule fields to experience the cognition of an unfolding reality .

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At least you aren’t making things up this time

AI says;
Thinking, as described as “cognition of inherent potentials,” refers to the mental process of recognizing and understanding the latent possibilities or capacities within a given situation or entity. In the context of discussing David Bohm’s ideas and their relation to consciousness and quantum mechanics, it suggests that our cognitive abilities allow us to perceive and consider the various ways in which quantum phenomena could manifest in the physical world. This notion ties into the broader discussion about how the abstract, mathematical descriptions of quantum physics might relate to the emergence of complex structures and consciousness. Essentially, it highlights the role of thought in bridging the gap between theoretical potentials and actualized realities.
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But that doesn’t mean any of this is anything other than some ideas. Maybe you can predict the future with math, but will the human race even survive long enough to do it? If we don’t survive, the question is moot.

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I never do.
AFAIK, all my statements rest on similar logical premises developed by serious scientists and are defensible on their merit. I never claim authorship, just my understanding of current science, which itself rests on knowledge of a tiny sliver of the universal Gravitational/EM plenum.

The main thrust of the argument is that we are talking about future possibilities that may never materialize. Its all probabilistic.

As atheist, what intrigues me most is that a impersonal mathematically based Universe may appear as a creative demiurge and could be presented as a third alternative option in the quest for a TOE.

39

Right.

Do you think I don’t understand this?
That is 101 Evolution and if that’s what you’re satisfied with fine.

But my life’s journey has been about discovering myself, and understanding this odd creature that I am. Full of thoughts and ideals and all the rest of it, on the other side stuck in this body that seems to have a mind of its own half the time.

Along with making sense of this amazing world I’ve found myself embedded within.

It brings us back to learning how to appreciate the Physical Reality ~ Human Mind divide. And the importance of a serious deep understanding of deep-time and Earth’s Pageant of Evolution.

What Bohm represents is the getting lost within our mindscape. Forgetting about our bodies and the Earthly stage upon while life unfolds.

Now, look at the world that our self-absorbed mindset has created - what’s that tell ya??

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That’s not an argument. It’s a Yogi Bera comment, “It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future”. This demiurge will never tell us that cooperation and compassion are better than killing our neighbors for sport. If you need a formula to figure that out, then your programming is already corrupted.

And I’m pretty sure you do mix up words.