Can being come from Non-being ?

Religion and Secularism
61
Bob

I find it quite interesting that many can accept life and consciousness springing from an inanimated mix of minerals and chemicals in the 5% of the universe we can see and then totally reject any notion of something similar happening from whatever occupies the 95% of the universe we say we can’t see.


The reason it seems unlikely that life would arise from dark matter and dark energy is that they are, well, dark.

The only known chemistry for life is organic chemistry in liquid water. The only places known that we can get stable liquid water are the surface of a planet in a stable orbit around a stable star in a fairly narrow range of distances of not too hot and not too cold for water to be liquid, or deep inside a moon of a large planet in a sub-surface ocean kept warm by tidal effects of that orbit.

Most of the visible stuff in the universe is also unsuitable for life, such as stars and interstellar gas.

It seems exceedingly unlikely that organic chemistry in liquid water could arise in dark matter or dark energy. How would that even work at all?

Lots and lots of unsuitable stuff is still unsuitable.

 

 

 

62

WOO? Perhaps Gould’s musings. As for the distinction between our “mindscape” and “physical material reality”, that my friend is certainly not woo. You’ve simply writing it off before giving it any serious thought.

Stardusty Psyche,

Woo nonsense. Gould was entirely wrong. the essay you cite is little more than a travelogue narrative of some trip he took.

There is no place in the science of evolution for god, spirit, soul, divine intervention, divine guidance, miracles, or any such superstitious foolishness. The science of evolution traces the biochemical means and interactions with the physical environment that gave rise to whole of all life that has ever lived of which we are just a small part, albeit the most intellectually advanced part.

Religion invents superstitious fantasies called mind, heart, and soul that have no place whatever in rational thought or scientific analysis.

All aspects of the human organism including all our thoughts and all our behaviors are entirely within the magisteria of science including the science of how these aspects of our organism arose, the science of evolution.

Religion is within the magisteria of ancient ignorant superstitious attempts at explaining who and what we are.

To say that religion is compatible with science is to say that ignorant superstition is compatible with rational analysis. They are not compatible with each other. Gould was wrong.


You misunderstand what I’m trying to explain, besides, I’m talking about the thing Gould was missing, so bitching about Gould’s article is off point.

. . . When it first came out I loved the idea because of my own struggling intellectual spiritual journey which was embedded within gathering and learning from sober scientific knowledge about this Earth, while dealing with the spiritual aspect of ‘touching Earth’ and having experienced ‘God’s breath’ against my back, so to speak.

Gould’s idea was interesting and it gained a lot of attention and lively discussion, but in the end seems to have offered little to either side. For myself, the criticisms made sense and my enthusiasm diminished. Still, the conflict kept echoing like an unresolved challenge as I increasingly engaged faith-shackled contrarians towards science.

In the years since I’ve kept learning more about Earth’s amazing evolution and geophysics and also the scientific process itself. A process that’s basically a set of rules for gathering and assessing our observations in an honest, open and disciplined manner that all who’ve learned to understand science can access and trust.

Recently it occurred to me that what Stephen Gould was missing was a much more fundamental divide that is crying out for recognition.

Specifically, the Magisteria of Physical Reality vs the Magisteria of our Human Mindscape.

In this perspective we acknowledge that Earth and her physical processes and the pageant of evolution are the fundamental timeless touchstones of reality. Part of Earth’s physical reality is that we humans were created by Earth out of her processes. … https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-missing-key-gould.html


I challenge you to mull it over a little. After all, you gotta admit, once we’re gone, all our wonderful science will be just as gone. What we were trying to understand will continue (we’ll most our biosphere will be gone, but fundamental processes and evolution will continue), but our understanding will be dust in the wind, just like our many gods.

Here we get into the MAP vs. TERRITORY business, with science being the map, and the material physical world being the territory, you know what I mean . . .

63
CC

WOO?


Yes, woo. I should think it over becuase you think maybe I haven’t already? Sheese.

Religion deals with the inside of our minds, hearts and souls,

Science does its best to objectively understand the physical world beyond all that.}


That is woo. I have been studying these subjects for decades. Those sentences are woo.

Mind, heart, and soul are brain function. That is a subject of science. What is called the mind is actually a dynamic process of brain function.

The notion of a literal soul is superstitious nonsense. Somehow some ectoplasma thingy attaches itself to our brains and then flys off into heaven when we die. How absurd.

Those brain functions attributed to mind, heart, and soul are in the magisteria of science, not outside of it. Science does not only study the physical world beyond all that, science also studies the brain function that is attributed to heart, mind, and soul.

There are no aspects of human thought are off limits to scientific study, none whatsoever.

 

64

Blaire: “The Bible was written by unknown authors.”

False. I suggest you learn a bit more about it. Start with the understanding that the Bible is not “a” book. It is a collection of texts written over a 2000 year period. No collusion, no conspiracy.

65

Stardusty Psyche: “It seems exceedingly unlikely that organic chemistry in liquid water could arise in dark matter or dark energy. How would that even work at all?”

Why would it have to be organic chemistry and liquid water? Those were formed from what we know exists in the 5%. I said “similar”, not identical. If you can tell us what sort of stuff the 95% has to work with, we may be able to speculate on what would result.

The point was that the 95% has 19 times as much stuff as the 5% and probably the same amount of time to work on it. If we were in the 95% we would probably speculate that there just isn’t enough stuff in the 5% to make anything happen.

66
Mind, heart, and soul are brain function. That is a subject of science. What is called the mind is actually a dynamic process of brain function.
I suggest it would be more accurate to say that mind, heart, soul are the results of brain functions. Think on it some.

Yes you could all them woo because they are names for things that are nonphysical. (not referring to our organs here!)

Which is exactly the point I’m trying to make. The products of our minds functions are something other. Yes its true new instruments can gauge the physical aspect of thinking with increasingly amazing detail and accuracy - but that doesn’t take away from the fundamental reality that our swarm of thoughts is something fundamentally different from the fabric that makes up the universe.

 

There are no aspects of human thought are off limits to scientific study, none whatsoever.


You choose to misunderstand. I didn’t say anything about making anything off limits to scientific study. This is more about gaining a more sober respect of the supremacy of physical reality over the machinations of our ever so fertile human minds.

Oh and scientific study itself is something outside the realm of regular material physical reality and Earth’s evolution marching along its way - though it is confined by material reality - and yes its true the products of ‘our mind’s science’ have had extraordinary impacts upon our planet and the path of her evolution.

Specifically, the Magisteria of Physical Reality vs the Magisteria of our Human Mindscape.

In this perspective we acknowledge that Earth and her physical processes and the pageant of evolution are the fundamental timeless touchstones of reality. Part of Earth’s physical reality is that we humans were created by Earth out of her processes. . . . https://confrontingsciencecontrarians.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-missing-key-gould.html


It you be fun to imagine you actually taking the time to read the entire essay - there’s also a longer version that’s more biographical and touches on how these thoughts developed - “Bringing it back to Earth Centrism”.

67
Bob: False. I suggest you learn a bit more about it. Start with the understanding that the Bible is not “a” book. It is a collection of texts written over a 2000 year period. No collusion, no conspiracy.
When you don't have good was to demonstrate truth, you will find yourself making unfoundable claims like this. What is Mark's last name? When was he born? What else did he write? Who did he know and hang around with. How did he write the parts where he wasn't there? Who did he interview?

You can’t answer any of those questions. It took a few decades to go from questioning the historicity of Moses to it being widely accepted that he didn’t exist and the Exodus did not happen. We may be in a similar situation with the New Testament today.

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Hi Bob,

The attached link is regarding the Psychology of Confirmation Bias.

Why Do We Believe ~ London Thinks. It’s an hour long but very thought provoking.

69
Bob

Why would it have to be organic chemistry and liquid water?


I used terms like “it seems unlikely” and “that we know of”. Yes, it has been speculated that perhaps there is some other chemical basis for life other than organic chemistry, but it seems unlikely.

If you can tell us what sort of stuff the 95% has to work with, we may be able to speculate on what would result.
Dark matter is asserted primarily by analyzing the rotational motions of galaxies and concluding there is a lot of unseen mass there.

Yet, we don’t see any large collections of mysterious stuff, leading to the conclusion that dark matter is made of weakly interacting subatomic particles that are spread out diffusely. That does not seem to be a candidate for life. Life requires the concentration of complex chemistry into localized spaces. Life is highly complex and structured and localized. Dark matter seems to be the opposite, highly disorganized and spread out.

The point was that the 95% has 19 times as much stuff as the 5% and probably the same amount of time to work on it. If we were in the 95% we would probably speculate that there just isn’t enough stuff in the 5% to make anything happen.
More than 99% of the mass of ordinary visible matter in our solar system is in places where life is not possible, our star, the sun.

 

70
CC

I suggest it would be more accurate to say that mind, heart, soul are the results of brain functions. Think on it some.

Yes you could all them woo because they are names for things that are nonphysical. (not referring to our organs here!)

Which is exactly the point I’m trying to make. The products of our minds functions are something other. Yes its true new instruments can gauge the physical aspect of thinking with increasingly amazing detail and accuracy – but that doesn’t take away from the fundamental reality that our swarm of thoughts is something fundamentally different from the fabric that makes up the universe.


New age nonsense replacing old age nonsense.

This is worse than I realized. No, our thoughts are not something fundamentally different from “the fabric that makes up the universe”. Our thoughts are part of the universe, we are members of the universe, absolutely everything about us is in the universe and of the universe and in no way separated from the universe.

they are names for things that are nonphysical.
No, thoughts are a physical process, they are not nonphysical.

It always cracks me up when some new age woo monger tells me to think about it. I have heard all your woo over and over again ad nauseam for decades. You go think about it.

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Stardusty Psyche said

No, thoughts are a physical process, they are not nonphysical.


This is a tricky question.

IMO, thinking is a physical process. But thoughts are a non-physical result. A controlled hallucination.

Think of a tree. Does the tree physically exist inside your head, lifesize? Is the tree a hologram inside the head? Is a hologram a physical thing?

72

Lausten: “When you don’t have good was to demonstrate truth, you will find yourself making unfoundable claims like this.”

What “unfoundable claims”? Do you believe the Bible is a singe Book? Do you not believe some of the texts were written over a 2000 year period? Do you think there is a conspiracy and collusion? Those are the three claims I made, nothing else. Did my post get your attention because it causes you to see me as one of those right wing Bible thumping evangelical deplorable Trumpians? If so, please read it again for unfoundable claims. I think you will find none.

BTW, I put conspiracy and collusion in there as a reference to the impeachment. Maybe someone got it.

Lausten: “You can’t answer any of those questions.”

No, I can’t because like you and the big bang, I wasn’t there. I think there are Bible scholars (I’m not one) out there that can answer some of your questions but perhaps not all. I’ve read enough and heard enough on the origin of the four accounts of Jesus’ life and Paul’s letters being widely accepted that I accept it because I trust those who have studied it and written on it and I have no basis on which to refute it.

I could agree if Blaire had said that there are some unanswered questions about the origins of some of the texts included in the Bible. The statement as made implies the Bible is a single work and its origins are unknown. I expect you and Blaire know there are several very old versions of the Bible and all do not contain all of the same texts. Even the implication that there is “the” Bible is wrong. I don’t know why people accept one and not another.

73

Stardust Psyche: “Yet, we don’t see any large collections of mysterious stuff, leading to the conclusion that dark matter is made of weakly interacting subatomic particles that are spread out diffusely. … Life is highly complex and structured and localized. Dark matter seems to be the opposite, highly disorganized and spread out.”

Wow, even though we don’t see dark matter, we draw conclusions about it. Maybe I should have used woo, not wow.

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December 29, 2019 at 12:23 pm#316922 Write4U Stardusty Psyche said No, thoughts are a physical process, they are not nonphysical.

Write4U: This is a tricky question.

IMO, thinking is a physical process. But thoughts are a non-physical result. A controlled hallucination.

Think of a tree. Does the tree physically exist inside your head, lifesize? Is the tree a hologram inside the head? Is a hologram a physical thing?


Thank you W4U.

Here’s another part of that

Science seeks to objectively learn about our physical world, but we should still recognize all our understanding is embedded within and constrained by our brain's mindscape.

Religion is all about the human mindscape itself, with its wonderful struggles, fears, spiritual undercurrents, needs and stories we create to give our live’s meaning and make it worth living, or at least bearable.

What’s the point? I think it’s about better appreciating our ‘frame of reference’ - and especially recognizing that we aren’t the center of creation.

This is important today because some have convinced themselves that they actually have a personal Almighty God in their back pockets, when in fact our Gods are as transient as governments and the human species itself.

Religions, heaven, hell, science, political beliefs, even God, they are all products of the human mindscape, generations of imaginings built upon previous generations of imaginings, all the way down.

That is not to say they are the same thing, they are not! Science is dedicated to honesty and objectively understanding physical reality while religion is concerned with the human imagination and our soul and spirit and our struggle through short life. They are different, but both are necessary human inventions.

Still, destined to be swept away by the hands of time, while Earth and life will continue its dance. …

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Bob: Wow, even though we don’t see dark matter, we draw conclusions about it. Maybe I should have used woo, not wow.
Based on effects we can observe.

If dark matter were huddled within Black Holes, doesn’t it make sense that observed effects would be quite different from what’s actually being observed?

 

76

Hi Bob,

Since you are a devout Christian, please share your thoughts on prayer…Listed below is how most non theists feel about magical thinking

God does NOT answer prayer!
If God can ignore and allow this…

  • 297 children have died from school shootings in the U.S. since 1995
  • 58 people were killed at the Las Vegas shooting, almost 500 shot but not killed
  • 250,000 people died in the Asian Tsunami in 2004
  • 230,000 people died in the earthquake in Haiti in 2010
  • Dylan Roof killed 9 people inside a church at a prayer meeting in 2015
  • Approximately 67,500 women report being raped in the US every year
  • Thousands of children have been raped by Catholic priests
  • 9,000,000 children under the age of 5 die worldwide every year
  • 3,000 Americans were killed in terrorist attacks in 2001
  • Adam Lanza shot & killed 20 children, 6 & 7 years old, at Sandy Hook Elementary
  • There have been 4,705 known lynchings in the U.S. since the civil war
  • Over 15,000 children under age 19 are diagnosed with cancer each year in the US
  • 800,000 Rwandas were killed in a 100 day genocide in 1994
  • 6,000,000 Jews were murdered during The Holocaust
  • Slavery has existed for hundreds of years
    (A list like this can easily go on and on and on!)

…So since millions upon millions of heart-felt prayers obviously went completely unanswered related to these very serious events (and other tragedies like them over the last 2,000 years), then He can’t POSSIBLY be inclined to answer your little prayer or give a shit about any of this:

  • Whether or not you thank Him for dinner
  • Your individual financial wants or needs
  • Protecting you or your loved ones from harm
  • Helping you find a job or a house
  • Who wins a sporting event
  • Loving all of us equally
  • Helping you or your loved ones overcome sickness or disease
  • Whatever else it is that you are praying for

Conclusion: A person would have to be a total narcissist (and lacking in basic common sense) to actually believe that God helps them individually by answering their relatively small, trivial prayers while at the very same time He quite obviously ignores and allows the death and unfathomably immense pain and suffering of MILLIONS of fellow human beings on a regular, ongoing basis. It makes zero sense!

It is foolish to believe that a god who floods the world, plaques us with disease, allows the murder and torture of children, allows concentration camps, etc… would give a darn about your prayer.

So let’s get real! It’s time to face facts! We’re on our own. Prayer is pointless. Let’s forego useless ‘thoughts and prayers’ and implement real, actual solutions to our problems!

77
What “unfoundable claims”? Do you believe the Bible is a singe Book? Do you not believe some of the texts were written over a 2000 year period? Do you think there is a conspiracy and collusion? Those are the three claims I made, nothing else. Did my post get your attention because it causes you to see me as one of those right wing Bible thumping evangelical deplorable Trumpians? If so, please read it again for unfoundable claims. I think you will find none.
I focused on the "unknown authors" part of your post. Most of the non-believers here have a pretty good idea of how the Bible was assembled, so I didn't bother addressing those other statements. And no one here that I know of thinks the Bible was a conspiracy. In answer my questions, you just waved your hand and said, "scholars". Maybe you need to go back and look them up. It's so easy, just google, "who wrote the gospel according to Mark".
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Write4U said : “IMO, thinking is a physical process. But thoughts are a non-physical result. A controlled hallucination.
Think of a tree. Does the tree physically exist inside your head, lifesize? Is the tree a hologram inside the head? Is a hologram a physical thing?”

TimB replies: A hallucination also has neurological correlates that comprise it. That is something physically real.

There are a couple of football teams on my TV right now. I don’t think that these teams actually exist inside my TV. I do think that the image of them is something that is physically real. But they ARE a real physically existent projection of lights. (not real football teams or trees, if you prefer, but physically existing projections of light.) (A hologram is just another example of a projected facsimile. It is not the physically real item that it portrays, but it is a real physical projection.)

Thoughts physically exist while their correlated firing of neurons physically exists.

79

Blaire: “Since you are a devout Christian”

A statement you cannot prove, something you do not know. We never know what another thinks or believes, even if he or she tells us. Beside that I think “devout” is another one of those words you chose to use to strengthen your condemnation of something you reject.

I think the prohibition on eating oxen in India was more likely a product of one of the raja’s ministers, perhaps the minister of agriculture, than a revelation to the raja. I can’t remember the raja’s name right now. The point is that the people needed some “devine” source to lead them to obey the edict. A logical argument that they not eat their oxen in lean years so that they would still have the means to plow their fields the next year would not have been enough. The first four of the ten commandments do the same, as do the first three words of the constitution. Humans seem to need to subjugate their will to the will of some sort of higher authority.

I do not see how you can conclude that God allows anything or ignores anything if you do not accept that he exists.

80
A statement you cannot prove, something you do not know.
Here's how we do things around here Bob. I'm a moderator, so I'm moderating.

If someone makes a statement that is in error, correct them with whatever evidence you have. Don’t claim that evidence of such a thing is not possible. You defended the Bible, saying the authors are known. It’s not a stretch from your posts that you appear to be Christian. If Blaire has misread that, correct him. Don’t read it into it that he’s insulting you.