Are Ghosts and Spirits Real? Psychology Fails to Explain the Paranormal

I’ve been interested in this topic for some time ever since I went to the Pettibone Tavern and heard the legend of Abigail Pettibone who was killed there by her husband who killed her upon finding her in the arms of another man. Since that time numerous paranormal activities have taken placed there and several investigation teams have looked into the phenomena. Psychological theories have been developed to try to debunk supernatural phenomena, yet to date none have. These theories are discussed and explained in this article.

 

Gosh, this is a very long article so forgive me if I don’t do justice to the whole thing at one sitting. One section that jumped out at me was “Efforts to Prove or Debunk”. Er, where does the “debunking” part come in? You’re talking about TAPS, which is a group of amateur “investigators” who are embarrassingly gullible about the existence of the paranormal. The fact that even THEY couldn’t find any orbs or anything paranormal amazed me, honestly. And even when they don’t find anything, they always find some way to leave the door open for the possibility. And the other group was called PROOF? Gee, I wonder what their stance is on the existence of ghosts.

Much more interesting to me is your opinion, as a clinical psychologist yourself, that there is no psychological theory to account for it. What about the “fantasy-prone” personality theory? I have read that in places like this which are reputedly haunted, people who believe in spirits are much more likely to report “incidents” of this nature than skeptics are. In fact skeptics rarely if ever seem to experience ghostly phenomena.

One last question – when you were staying at the Pettibone, did you have a ghostly experience you’d like to tell us about? (I promise I won’t scoff.)

Natalie,

I’m interested in the paranormal too. I’ve never seen any ghosts, but I’ve sensed presences and felt like ghosts were following me. I can’t tell if I was just being paranoid, but it felt like invisible beings were watching me. I don’t think ghosts (if they exist) are dead people. They’re probably aliens with invisibility technology.

 

Philosophicus

I may not believe much, but ghosts amd spirits. I whole heartedly believe in. Ive heard, felt, seen, and talked to them alot. Dreams, middle of the day, etc. could feel them around in public and get the little chill and touching feel. My dad is the same. In my family my mother died at a young age. And before she went she stared eyes glossy and said “ i can see my dad, i see him, he wants me to follow him” and my dad told me the second he said it was ok you have suffered enough. She went slack and we lost her. There are too many actually documented cases of spiritual interaction for it to be false.

There are too many actually documented cases of spiritual interaction for it to be false.
If by "documented" you mean "written down", then yes, there are oodles of them.

Many people, myself included, would rather have “verified” or “confirmed” cases, of which there are zero.

I just gave you a true example of a spirit leaving the body. Dont disrespect me. And yes there is verified cases. If you search for something looking for it to be wrong it will be wrong, or vice versa. Some people experience it first hand, go hangout with a friemd of yours tht has, and you will see the difference. Some people are sensitive enough, and some arent. If you want videos of a being existing outside our very limited perception of heat, energy, light, and sound. You might have ro wait a while for technological advancedment

Some people are sensitive enough, and some arent.
And there it is. I was going to comment on "hyper agency detection" or "confirmation bias", but no need. This is the line that once crossed, it's difficult to return. Once you decide that there is some special power that some people have and others don't, you've given yourself a way out of any reasonable discussion. The problem is, you've also given anyone you want, maybe yourself, free reign to claim whatever they want. This is what every cult leader ever has exploited, all of the ones that failed that we don't know about, all the way up to Mussolini and others like him. They don't need to convince you of anything except this one thing, that some people are more 'sensitive'. Sensitive is good right? You want to be more sensitive, don't you? I'm sensitive, look, I helped this child in need. I have a five point plan for improving the world with sensitivity. But you know, not everyone will get, so we might need some weapons, and I'll need some of your money, and, well, you know what comes next.

No. Now you are just off on a tangent. I wouldn’t follow a cult leader, or anything of that sort. Its not a “power”. It’s exactly like how some people can be musical and rhythmic and some cant. Or some can be talented at sports with little practice. What i meant by sensitive, is their soul is more open to it. You cant tell me you have never felt eyes on you, or woke up knowing someone was there but dissmissed it because you arent a believer. Its ok not to believe, and nobody will ridicule you for that. Its also ok to push boundaries and try to pay a little more attention to your surroundings. You will see what i mean by spirituality interaction. but hey, i understand your view on this. I understand skepticism cuz i had a whole post about being skeptical about claircognizance because my friend circle wanted me to believe thats what i was doing without knowing. And of course its debunked as of now until further evidence surfaces. Sift through some spiritual articles, and watch out for the obvious fake ones for attention. You will know which ones are realistic and which arent i assume.

I just gave you a true example of a spirit leaving the body.
Anecdotes are not proof of anything.
Dont disrespect me.
Honestly, I'm not. There is no disrespect in any of my words. If we disagree, then we disagree, no disrespect involved - at least on my part.

I know lots of people who claim to have had supernatural experiences (we’re talking bed-spinning demons and dishes flying around the room kind of stories), and I don’t believe any of them. It is entirely possible that they are all telling the truth, but I have no reason to believe a single story.

If you are claiming that anecdotes are sufficient proof to believe in the supernatural, then you must therefore believe every story you hear. Do you?

And yes there is verified cases.
Sorry, but if there were, you would have then listed them for me to look at. You didn't, so I am doubtful that even you believe that to be true.
Some people are sensitive enough, and some arent. If you want videos of a being existing outside our very limited perception of heat, energy, light, and sound. You might have ro wait a while for technological advancedment
That is true. So you'll naturally do me the honor of allowing me to wait for those advancements to produce at least one bit of valid data before I believe any of it. right?
Sift through some spiritual articles, and watch out for the obvious fake ones for attention. You will know which ones are realistic and which arent i assume.
I did. There were none left after my sifting.

Maybe my sifter is too fine. Do you think I need one that lets anecdotes through? But if I get one of those, I’m pretty sure every article will make it through.

I think I’ll keep the one I have.

I wouldn’t follow a cult leader, or anything of that sort.
Said every cult/religion follower ever.
You cant tell me you have never felt eyes on you, or woke up knowing someone was there but dissmissed it because you arent a believer.
Like I said in my last post, I know lots of people with stories that make yours look rather blasé, and they also claim that it's me who's not 'open' or 'sensitive' or whatever, to the spiritual side of things. Maybe I am 'closed' to that world, but if it interacts with the real world in any way whatsoever, I would be unable to ignore it. I have seen nothing... ever.

So I most certainly can tell you I “have never felt eyes on you, or woke up knowing someone was there but dissmissed it because you arent a believer.”

so hostile about it. Maybe they just dont want to interact with you man. And no i dont carry around links to articles ive read, and im not giving you numbers to people i perosnally know who have experienced it. Also stop trying to convince and force your train of thought on me. If you dont believe then dont. Stop trying to ridicule and down talk others my guy. And i would not call my childhood loss an anecdote. Again nothing but disrespect for everyone around you. And obviously bed spinning unless witnessed by people woudlnt be true man. Like why bring up the most far fetched example to down play someone. Thats like looking at a Christian and going “god make me levitate if you are real” and then being like ha you are an idiot but no disrespect.

And obviously bed spinning unless witnessed by people woudlnt be true man.
Wait a minute. That's my good friend who told me that story with 100% conviction. If I were to believe anyone, I'd believe him!

And I’m not trying to convince you (well, maybe I am a bit) but I’m more trying to show you why I don’t feel that you are as convincing as you hope you are.

Again, I’m not disrespecting you at all. I am actually trying to communicate to you what I feel are the shortcomings in your method of convincing others to believe you. Trust me, this is not disrespectful dialogue.

I really do want you to read my posts and understand what I am saying so that you can modify your method of convincing others. I give a statement by you and then my response. This is to show you which points are not going to work on someone with a rational/skeptical/scientific approach to this topic.

If there is another way for me to help you, let me know.

[I am going to make a point now and want you to know there is no disrespect meant whatsoever!!!]

And i would not call my childhood loss an anecdote.
That is the definition of an anecdote. I am honestly sorry for your loss and feel terrible that you had to go through it, but that doesn't change the fact that your story is literally the definition of an anecdote.

I am saying this to help you work out a way of communicating, not make you feel bad or dumb or anything like that. If my writing style is so poor that it makes you feel that way, then it’s my failing, not yours.

First, that wasn’t an “article”, it was an ad, and I don’t have time for a four hour long ad.

Second, no, real, intelligent, trained professionals have not “failed to explain” the paranormal any more than they have “failed to explain” my magic unicorn pony, which is a unicorn, only smaller. And magic. Legitimate professionals would easily explain this as a “delusion”. This explanation would change when I offered them evidence to support my claim, such as by presenting my magic unicorn pony for study. UNTIL I am able to present something for study they have no duty to offer explanations for my particular favored delusion.

Its ok not to believe, and nobody will ridicule you for that. Its also ok to push boundaries and try to pay a little more attention to your surroundings. You will see what i mean by spirituality interaction. but hey, i understand your view on this.
And there's step two. I just wasn't doing it right. I could push these boundaries, I'm just not paying enough attention. Just open my eyes and I'll see. And the soft sell, it's okay if I don't.

This does not compare to athletes or natural musical abilities. Those are combinations of genetic traits that can be developed. We have institutions dedicated to developing them that have produced consistent results.

Ghosts and spirits are as “real” as concepts are real. But that’s it. They are made up stories. They only exist in (what someone I know of refers to as) one’s “Mindscape”.

 

Thats the difference. Ive voiced my opinions and im done. I was just making counter statements to explain why i dont agree. I don’t want you to change your opinion. I completely understand what you are saying. And if mutiple witnesses seen that bed spin, and your heart knows he said it with conviction then he believes. I know about sleep paralysis, and all the logical approaches to this topic. You arent wrong, because nobody knows if its facts. Its all theory, both sides have holes. Just dont try to belittle the other side. Thank you for clarifying because it honestly seemed very disrespectful as an approach. And just refer to something that sensitive as anything but an anecdote. Because oart of that definition is amusing and thats the only part of the definition that came to mind whem you used it. Its all about word choice my friend. Also tim, i seen your thing about time travel and im hella interested in those sort of theorys

Well, thanks, tho whatever I said about time travel was probably tongue-in-cheek. Tho it is fun to think about.

As far as people being disrespectful, to others’ beliefs in the supernatural, yeah, that could be toned down, I suppose, but consider how it is frustrating to those of us who recognize rational beliefs to be so important, while we are faced with societies where beliefs in the supernatural is SO pervasive.

You arent wrong, because nobody knows if its facts. Its all theory, both sides have holes. Just dont try to belittle the other side.
Been thinking about this. On one level, it’s a simple matter of calculating probabilities. So, sure, “both sides have holes”, but one side is 99+% probable while the other is whatever fraction of a percent is left. When I’m on the wrong side of those numbers, I don’t feel belittled, I feel like I need to do some reading to figure out what is most likely true.

I have close friends who think like you do, I’ve been through this conversation a few times. What you need to understand is, once you cross that line, where something your grandma said on her death bed is considered as evidence, as if it is a scholarly study, you get thrown into a set of people that should be treated with suspicion. Look into how cults get started, how people end up doing terrible things to their own children because someone told a story about witches or something and it builds from there. It’s not fair for you to be treated as if you would do that, but it’s also not a good idea to allow for wildly unsubstantiated data to be thrown around as if it matters.

If we had the time, and we were face to face, and I cared more about you personally, I could approach this in a more subtle manner and perhaps we could reach an understanding. But we don’t have any of that, so I hope you get my drift.

My mom once told me a story about the witch from my dad’s family telling a chair to hold someone in a corner. That chair, on its own, chased the kid into a corner and would not let him leave until that old witch said to. She also told me about the conversation she had with her dead mother, sitting on the corner of her bed. Now, you don’t know my mom, but I can tell you, this woman wouldn’t lie to save her life. She really believes these things. She was not lying to me. She also was not correct.

The story of the witch, that’s not something she saw. That’s a story she was repeating. And it’s a story she believes. So she repeated it as fact, even though it was just a ridiculous story. But the conversation with her dead mother, that was her story. That was something she not only believed, but something she, personally, experienced. But there’s a clue to a rational explanation even in the abridged version I told. Her dead mother was sitting on the corner of her bed. She was in bed at the time and she had a vivid dream. In fact, that is how a great many ghost and, especially, alien abduction stories start. It is really a disproportionate number.

It doesn’t matter how many people tell me these stories, or how much I trust them. I am never going to believe them. If I see it with my own eyes I’m not going to believe my eyes. I’m certainly not going to believe what I “feel”. (And, by the way, no, I have never “felt eyes on me” or woken in the middle of the night sure someone was there. Ever.) Schedule a session with your psychiatrist (keep reading. I’m not being a dick here) and tell him that someone “made you feel” something. He will immediately tell you that nobody has the power to “make” you feel anything. You are in control of how you feel. Your “feelings” cannot be trusted because they are of your own making. You’re not “more perceptive” if you can see ghosts, you’re just more prone to psyching yourself out. And you can see this in all the ghost hunter shows. They always follow the same formula. Get excited about the new “hunt”. Talk about it on the way there. Talk about the things you might find. Get there and set up. Then turn off all the lights and walk around a dark, spooky, unfamiliar place for a few hours, teaming up with one other person who is as psyched out about it as you are. Not 3 or 4 or 10 people, just 2. That way you don’t feel the “safety in numbers”. Literally everything they do is designed to psych them out so that they can have an “experience”.

And I’m sorry, but the two sides are not equal. One side is rational, the other side is not. I can say this with complete confidence because supernatural claims are one of the few true dichotomies I know of. All supernatural claims have either 1) not been proven to be true or 2) been proven to be not true. A truly rational, objective person would look at that and say that it is pretty good evidence it’s all bunk. James Randi offered a million dollars to anyone who could prove anything supernatural for years. Nobody ever won, though many tried. There were always excuses, much like the ones given in this thread, for why they couldn’t be scientifically tested. There was crying about it not being fair. There was whining about disagreeing and disputing being disrespectful. I hate to break it do you, but your beliefs are not due any respect from my any more than my beliefs are due any respect from you.

Respect is not a thing you are automatically due. If you say something ridiculous you should expect to be treated as someone who just said something ridiculous, even if you don’t think it is ridiculous. If you link a moving story about the death of your mother to something ridiculous you say, that’s on you when people treat it like it’s ridiculous. If you don’t want to have hurt feelings then maybe you shouldn’t exploit the death of your mother in an attempt to make your ridiculous claims (a second hand story, by the way) immune from dissent. Because that is what you did. You shared a personal story because, in your mind, NOBODY can say you are wrong now or they are just being disrespectful jerks! Well, I am sorry about your mother. I was actually there when my father died and it was not cool. But I didn’t see anything in that story which in any way suggested anything “spiritual” happened except that you claim that your father claimed that your mother claimed to have seen dead relatives. An unproven, third hand claim is not exactly the nail in the coffin to skepticism.

A little tip, in all seriousness here. Look back at the things you posted. Really read it and think about this. You are arguing from an almost entirely emotional perspective. Then go on to reread what others have posted. We are arguing from an almost entirely logical perspective. I think that is very telling that the ONE believer here is the ONE person thinking more emotionally than logically about the subject. This subject means something to you emotionally, and that’s why you take offense when people disagree with you or dispute what you’re saying. That is the very definition of a bias.

There can be a phase between being asleep and coming awake, when some people have experienced a hypnogogic state. Sort of like dreaming but feeling as if you are awake. In a hypnogogic state, a person who never hallucinates, otherwise, could basically experience a hallucination, like seeing one’s dead mother.