“Your interpretation is wrong” I wouldn’t use such words - that’s not being democratic nor encouraging free speech. Different people, different ideas
There is no evidence for any God or Garden of Eden - so I came up with the idea of Childhood, the womb
You are welcome to disagree but quite arrogant of you to think you alone are right
Obviously you are a Christian who blindly reads scripture - there must be only one explanation that with which you are comfortable with, and my explanation which obviously does not put Christianity in a good light, must be wrong
Yes just as a topic posted can be moved to another area, maybe we can move replies also if the go off a tangent that has nothing to do with the original post
I was discussing a 2,000 year old story and somehow that turned into a current 21st century issue that we are dealing with - just like how religious people see any dark event of today and say it was predicted in the Bible, lol
There is no punishment - Adam just grew up that’s all and left the nest
You can see this mostly with animals - once the kids grow up the parents literally kick them out of the nest, the cave, the den whatever
We humans do it too - we encourage kids to move out as soon as they turn 18, though unlike animals we do it in a much nicer way
[quote=“vanamali, post:41, topic:9795, full:true”]
“Your interpretation is wrong” I wouldn’t use such words - that’s not being democratic nor encouraging free speech. Different people, different ideas
First, I am not preventing you from speaking , so you have free speech.
Second, free speech has nothing to do with being right or wrong.
I will stipulate that your interpretation is tangentially connected with the “concensus” interpretation that I quoted (with link) and apparently, you never bothered to read.
There is no evidence for any God or Garden of Eden - so I came up with the idea of Childhood, the womb.
A good effort but not logically leading to a correct conclusion. Do revisit my posts and check out the links to scholarly references.
You are welcome to disagree but quite arrogant of you to think you alone are right
That is why I quoted the consensus by biblical scholars along with a link.
I always try to back my posits or critiques with scholarly articles that support my perspective. No arrogance here, just consensus agreement with biblical scholars.
Obviously you are a Christian who blindly reads scripture - there must be only one explanation that with which you are comfortable with, and my explanation which obviously does not put Christianity in a good light, must be wrong
And here is where you display your sloppy reading and hasty conclusions.
I am a “hard” atheist and when you get to know me better, you will find that my knowledge of the bible is equal to many religious folks. That helps in debating theism but is not in any way indicative of being a Christian, although in fairness, all scripture contains some useful philosophical truths.
The seven sins and seven virtues are very useful in describing “right and wrong”
The seven deadly sins are pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth. The seven heavenly virtues are faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, temperance and prudence. Aug 21, 2015
Seven deadly sins and seven heavenly virtues for life on social media - ABC listen
I believe that is a profound observation, worthy of inclusion into any lifestyle.
As atheist I still try to live by those words of wisdom. Those are secular moral values and have nothing to do with the existence of a God.
Knowledge is the greatest weapon against ignorance. And being that you are a fellow atheist traveller, allow me to direct you to a very useful book when debating the Bible, Quran, and Book of Mormons.
Trust me, you want this in your library.
https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/#gsc.tab=0
No, I don’t think so, because I’m getting the feeling the desire for posts to be moved to a different or new thread is only because they are not liked and differ from the opinions of the original posters. This is just the opinion of one mod though and needs to be further discussed in the admin section if the other mod’s opinion differs.
Not all human mothers push their kids out at 18. Some are perfectly willing to allow them to stay as long as then need to do so. I didn’t kick my son out at 18. The younger one left at 19 and the older one left at 24. The one who left at 19 keeps wanting to return home though and he’s now 31. So there’s some advantage of them staying.
And what does that have to do with the parable of “eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge” ?
If anybody’s posts should be moved it is vanamali.
His own OP question is already off topic and has nothing to do with the biblical story of the births of Adam and Eve.
If he wants to have a topic about birth and parenting responsibilities, go back to "the births of Adam and Eve and the birth of the garden for Adam and Eve to cultivate within Paradise, until they disobeyed God’s command and were punished by expulsion.
The cautionary parable of “expulsion from Eden” is descriptive of becoming an independent agent, able to disobey the God’s laws, the Laws of Nature.
The problem is that vanamali is unwilling to accept consensus interpretation and insists that his version is one of several acceptable interpretations possible. It isn’t!
The story of Eden is contained in the scientific evidence of Humans becoming separated from their “common ancestry” with the other great apes as a result of the mutation of 2 ancestral chromosomes into 1 larger chromosome, which made man the only ape with 23 pr chromosomes instead of 24 pr chromosomes, which led to the development of a larger brain and a leap in intelligence and abstract reasoning and a measure of Free Will to act “outside” natural evolutionary processes.
Hence the comparison of Man’s creation in the image of God as a causal agency.
After all God is supernatural, no?
This is already long after the concept of an “unseen enemy that lives in the sky”
which is an evolved extension of the fight-or-flight survival instinct.
Today we can see in our hominid cousins the great apes what our earliest common ancestors already perceived as potential unseen powerful beings, threats to survival, that lived in the sky and made loud noises and threw water and fire that sometimes killed a whole forest and everything in it.
Even primitive animals can perceive potential threats to life when the environment is on fire! That’s why they run from the smoke, 'cause where there is smoke, there’s fire!
The concept of earth and sky gods came long before man climbed from the trees and can be seen today in the behavior of Chimpanzees who display passive/aggressive behaviors in response to a thunderstorm.
This has been recorded behavior and is assumed to be the birth of belief in gods.
Religious behaviors in apes.
Mysterious chimpanzee behaviour could be ‘sacred rituals’ and show that chimps believe in god
The ritual has similarities with the building of shrines or cairns, a human ritual that has been happening for thousands of years and across civilisations
Andrew Griffin
Friday 04 March 2016 12:15
Please there are ALWAYS exceptions - when people make statements like I did - we speak in generality. “Kids grow up and go off to college” - you can say well, not all kids
True, but you get the point of the comment?
yes biblical scholars - Christians - and they all say the same thing? Amazing!
How does one get a new idea in? Old ideas are followed by millions & then ONE person might chime in with a new idea & over time it gains acceptance
That is what is happening here & you seem unwilling to let in a new idea from a non-Christian source
Have you heard of Darwin? Lots of people had different ideas before he came along and then his ideas were slowly accepted
Now you sound like a child - you know I was answering her point
Back to the discussion - The words that you use - obey, disobey - classic Slave words - You disobeyed Master & now you are kicked out of his Kingdom
Amazing that all some people have to do is use God instead of Master or King and people blindly read
I presented a different view - of a child growing up & leaving the nest
Again this is what happens in a democracy, people can see the same thing and have different views
Amazing that I can’t seem to get thru to you on this
I can say : "Well true, but it has nothing to do with the allegory of Adam and Eve being punished for eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. The (passive) punishment for becoming God-like smart is the point of the story.
Remember the passage where God observes; “Behold, they have become like us and I shall confound their language”
In religion they call it “prophesy”.
Prophesy , is a verb that describes the action of making a prophetic prediction. As with the noun, a prophet most commonly prophesies under divine influence.
https://www.writersdigest.com/write-better-fiction/prophecy-vs-prophesy-grammar-rules
These punishments are eternal, and judging by the recent man-caused global warming patterns, this was a profound prediction.
And let us not forget the current political climate . Has our language become confounded ? You bet it has!
The people that wrote all the different scriptural books were not stupid. They just used the wrong causal agency, because representing an all-powerful vengeful God gave them power over the sheeple.
And that is how Theism has ruled over billions of people and also has been the cause of millions of deaths because of the God question.
"I can say : “Well true, but it has nothing to do with the allegory of Adam and Eve being punished for eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge. The (passive) punishment for becoming God-like smart is the point of the story.”
yes sir it is called a DIFFERENT idea - A NEW IDEA - that I proposed
Here’s another new idea - most religions view God as a Father - that is why these religions do not preach division and hate unlike Christianity & Islam which are Master/Slave religions
And what child does not want to follow in his or her Father’s footsteps?
Is it not the most natural thing to do?
That does not mean magic or miracle - but if God is seen as a guide, a source of knowledge, one who helps us live a better life, what is wrong with trying to become God-like smart?
Buddhists aspire to be like the Buddha - nothing wrong with that- in fact that is what they should try to be
That is what the ancient Greek religion and Hinduism preach - that we should aspire to be God-like
So, why do Christianity & Islam say it is wrong? It is wrong when God is viewed as a Master/a King - Only the Prince may aspire to be King, the Master, and no one else! If one aspires to be a King, he will be summarily punished!
The slave/servant belongs down on the ground, at his master’s feet, not by the side of Master
Simple, primitive ideas of God from simple, primitive people
Christians & Muslims made their Gods using the most powerful man of their day - the King/Dictator demanding obedience and loyalty & rewarding(Heaven)/punishing(Hell) accordingly
There is not much here - sad that these are the top religions of the day
Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism(wish Jews would break their connection to Christianity/Islam, they have less in common with them & more in common with Hinduism), Sikhism are Teacher/Student faiths - they view God as a Teacher, a Father
But can you make a persuasive case that your interpretation is the correct one?
Have at it and unpack the allegory logically to show this is a story of children growing up and leaving the nest, using the allegory of eating from the forbidden fruit.
Where does disobedient behavior come into your story?
Are you saying that the bible has been misprinted in regard to the tree of knowledge and Adam just wanted to go to college? What college would that be?
[quote=“vanamali, post:53, topic:9795”]
what is wrong with trying to become God-like smart?
God says it was wrong that they had become like Him, that’s why he confounded their language.
Do you actually read the bible at all. What version are you using?
Please know that I am not in any fundamental agreement with Scripture and I am only explaining where I believe you are misinterpreting the parables and allegories, substituting them with your own wishful ideas.
Note that I agree with a lot of your questions and statements, but you are trying to use the bible to justify your atheism and that won’t work, ever!
The Bible is the book of God. Now read the definition of atheist.
This is a story! Why should there be a CORRECT interpretation? Seriously, have you not come across ANY ideas that people differ on? Seriously? People differ on ideas that have FACTS to back them up, this is just a story!
“Scripture” OMG! Scripture is just words by people living a long time ago! God did not write those words, oh, “Atheist” - just primitive people wrote those words
“your own wishful ideas” And Christians who made up the interpretation don’t have wishful ideas of their own?
But I am going to use you as my subject for a new post - in life we have moved forward in all areas - the new replaces the old. We discard old ideas of healthcare and use new ideas
Darwin struck down old ideas of how the we came to be
Once called the father of philosophy is derided now as outdated
Einstein vehemently disagreed with Bohr and lost!
We have moved forward until we get to religion when it seems we come to a screeching halt. Now new ideas are mocked as wishful thinking? The old ideas, old interpretation must be the only one! The correct one!
And you are an Atheist?
And you expect to convert Theists that God - a being they view as a Sugar Daddy who will keep them in cozy comfort for eternity - does not exist?
In their case they have much to lose by agreeing with you, but in this case, you lose nothing!
You expect THEM to have an open mind while YOURS is firmly closed?
That is why I suspected that you are Christian. Blindly supporting primitive ideas shows that clearly you have not lost your Christian upbringing
I was just responding to what he said about human mothers. I’d move them, but then I’d have to move all his posts, including the first one, which kind of defeats the purpose.
It does, which is one reason I told him no about moving posts.
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No, because it really has nothing to do with Adam and Eve, as Write4u pointed out.
And I was answering your point. Given this is a forum of conversations, we could do this he said, she said, all night, but that is ridiculous.
Or whipped to death by the Cracker (the one who cracks the whip, the origin of the word).
Whatever floats your boat and gets you through the night.
[quote=“vanamali, post:50, topic:9795”]
yes biblical scholars - Christians - and they all say the same thing? Amazing!
How does one get a new idea in? Old ideas are followed by millions & then ONE person might chime in with a new idea & over time it gains acceptance
In 3000 years of Abrahamic religions there has been only one scientific concession by the Papal Academy of Science.
And that is the fact of Evolution of complex organisms by means of Natural selection, rather than Creation of irreducibly complex organisms, such as Creation of Adam as a fully formed human, in the likeness of God.
The Pope Would Like You to Accept Evolution and the Big Bang
The Roman Catholic Church is pro-evolution and Big Bang, but with a twist
Yesterday, Pope Francis, the head of the Roman Catholic Church, said that Darwinian evolution is real, and so is the Big Bang, according to the Telegraph. Elsewhere in his speech to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Pope said:
“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.
He added: “He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfilment.
That is what is happening here & you seem unwilling to let in a new idea from a non-Christian source.
You don’t understand the meaning of “divine revelation”? God’s Divine Plan?
In the past, they would have burned you at the stake for blasphemy.
Now you come along and you want to change the Divine Revelation of God’s Divine Plan and you expect to be able to change a believer in God’s Divine plan?
Have you heard of Darwin? Lots of people had different ideas before he came along and then his ideas were slowly accepted
I just told you that the one irrefutable fact of Evolution has been acknowledged by the Church. Even then not one word in the Bible has been revised.
This is a story! Why should there be a CORRECT interpretation? Seriously, have you not come across ANY ideas that people differ on? Seriously? People differ on ideas that have FACTS to back them up, this is just a story!
To a believer this is not a story! It is DIVINE REVELATION! Now you come along and want to change divine revelation?
“Scripture” OMG! Scripture is just words by people living a long time ago! God did not write those words, oh, “Atheist” - just primitive people wrote those words
The bible was compiled by very knowledgeable people and many of the old stories were left out.
“your own wishful ideas” And Christians who made up the interpretation don’t have wishful ideas of their own?
No, of course not. Their interpretation is their scholarship. Christianity IS their wish
But I am going to use you as my subject for a new post - in life we have moved forward in all areas - the new replaces the old. We discard old ideas of healthcare and use new ideas.
You are mixing Scientific method with Dogmatic religions. That doesn’t work.
Darwin struck down old ideas of how we came to be.
Not to everybody. Ever heard of the Kitzmiller trial about Christians wanting to teach Intelligent Design as a science subject ? Check it out.
Only in the scientific world do we discard old ideas if they are proved wrong. Religions did not change one iota until a couple of decades ago. And Scripture still has not changed a single word.
Once called the father of philosophy is derided now as outdated
Einstein vehemently disagreed with Bohr and lost!
No, that is incorrect. Einstein was never called the “father of philosophy.”
His intellectual achievements and originality resulted in “Einstein” becoming synonymous with “genius”.[[13]]
(Albert Einstein - Wikipedia)
Einstein succeeded in so many different areas of science, that he is still called the Father of modern science.
We have moved forward until we get to religion when it seems we come to a screeching halt. Now new ideas are mocked as wishful thinking? The old ideas, old interpretation must be the only one! The correct one!
Exactly! And yes the old interpretation is the only correct one according to fundamentalist practitioners. That is why the Bible has not been revised in thousands of years.
And you are an Atheist?
Absolutely , I am as atheist as is possible. I totally reject the concept of an intelligent supernatural motivated agency with human properties.
When compared to the scope of the Universe, this concept is no more than a wishful (and prideful) fantasy.
you expect to convert Theists that God - a being they view as a Sugar Daddy who will keep them in cozy comfort for eternity - does not exist?
In their case they have much to lose by agreeing with you, but in this case, you And lose nothing!
Yep, that’s about the size of it and no I don’t expect to convert anybody. I don’t proselytize, but I don’t tolerate uninformed interpretations of literature that has been combed over by experts of all disciplines for centuries and have been well defined as to the correct interpretations of the allegories.
You need to watch this little informative exchange.
You expect THEM to have an open mind while YOURS is firmly closed?
OK, tell me in what way my mind is firmly closed and to what?
That is why I suspected that you are Christian. Blindly supporting primitive ideas shows that clearly you have not lost your Christian upbringing
Wow, my friend, you are going completely off the rails here.
What primitive ideas do I blindly support?
What makes you think I had a Christian upbringing?
Don’t start slinging mud to see what sticks. You are completely in left field, my atheist friend. Stick to what you think you know.
Listen to Lewis Black for some enlightened advise.
And if you want the whole biblical story as told by Lewis Black
History is a science. It doesn’t have the same kind of solid evidence as some sciences, but it’s still not decided by democratic vote, you need reasons for your views. A view with no backing by scholars has a low probability of being the correct view. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to call that a “wrong” view.
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