Let’s talk when there is evidence
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In what way?
Logically?
If you were/are a scientist then you must know that an “opinion of could be” is by no means persuasive as a scientific argument, let alone as proof of anything.
I have read much about ORCH OR and I like the concept of microtubule quantum processing, but that only confirms the concept of “energy conservation”, not of a “conscious” universe.
I prefer Max Tegmark’s vision of a quasi-intelligent functioning universe. Our entire mathematical symbolization is proof that there is a mathematical aspect to spacetime.
But consciousness? Consciousness is an emergent phenomenon, but “music of the spheres” does not imply a cosmic composer or conductor . It implies “logic”.
This is a common misunderstanding of probability. “Could be” is a form of “it’s possible” with no assigned probability. That would require data, evidence, experimental results. We don’t have that. What we have is centuries of claims about souls.
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As a fantasy it’s no better than Hameroff’s.
[quote=“martin-peter-clarke, post:45, topic:7725”]
As a fantasy it’s no better than Hameroff’s.
Ok, then explain to me the “unreasonable effectiveness” of human mathematical symbolization of universal properties and functions.
In all other sciences the effective application of “values” and “mathematical functions”
would surely be considered proof of a mathematical aspect to the spacetime.
But where most scientists assign “some” mathematical aspects to the Universe, Tegmark assigns “only” mathematical aspects and that is an entirely defensible position.
How does a daisy “know” to grow its petals in the Fibonacci Sequence? It doesn’t know, right? But it does grow via that sequence as do many natural biological organisms and that can be attributed to natural selection of mathematical symmetries and that is demonstrably true.
10 FACTS ON LEONARDO FIBONACCI AND THE FIBONACCI SEQUENCE
#7 FIBONACCI SEQUENCE IS RELATED TO THE GOLDEN RATIO
Two quantities are said to be in golden ratio if (a+b)/a = a/b where a>b>0. Its value is (1 + root 5)/2 or 1.6180339887 … Golden ratio can be found in patterns in nature like the spiral arrangement of leaves which is why it is also called divine proportion .
The proportion is also said to be aesthetically pleasing due to which several artists and architects, including Salvador Dali and Le Corbusier , have proportioned their work close to the golden ratio.
The Fibonacci sequence and the golden ratio are intimately interconnected. The ratio of consecutive Fibonacci numbers converges and approaches the golden ratio and the closed-form expression for the Fibonacci sequence involves the golden ratio.
So, what is causal to this recurring regular phenomenon? It ain’t luck!
Are there non-mathematical symmetries? Spiral growth is not a first order phenomenon, it’s a second order one. There are no genes for spirals.
Why do you do that? That’s like saying elections are tiny planets orbiting a nucleus, simply because there’s a mathematical formulation that reduced the atom to a solar system.
June 13, 2012
NIH Human Microbiome Project defines normal bacterial makeup of the body
The human body contains trillions of microorganisms — outnumbering human cells by 10 to 1. Because of their small size, however, microorganisms make up only about 1 to 3 percent of the body’s mass (in a 200-pound adult, that’s 2 to 6 pounds of bacteria), but play a vital role in human health.
Plus, that figure has been shown to be inaccurate.
# Human microbiota: The microorganisms that make us their home
Written by Maria Cohut, Ph.D. on June 27, 2020 — Fact checked by Hilary Guite, FFPH, MRCGPResearchers have long debated the true ratio of human cells to microorganisms in the average body. Estimates have fluctuated, but the most recent study to consider the matter — which appeared in PLOS Biology in 2016 — suggests that we likely have about as many microorganisms in and on our bodies as we do human cells.
In addition to bacteria and viruses, these microorganisms include archaea.), primitive organisms with no nucleus, and eukaryotic microorganisms, or eukarya, a type with a nucleus that protects its chromosomes. In the latter group are fungi and protists, tiny organisms at the “border” between a plant and a fungus. (that is ~50/50 - as of 2016)
All of these together make up various microbiota: communities of microorganisms present at different sites on or in the human body.
Gut environment
Microorganisms in the mouth
Female urogenital areas
Male urogenital areas
On the skin
Microorganisms of the eye
In the lungs
(not sure why they left out Ears and Nose)
Now that brings all this biome hype from the fantastical “you are 90% germs” to perhaps 50% (which equal about a couple pounds or a little more if you are heavy) and the not insignificant point of fact that most all of them are at contact points with the outside world.
Now that framework brings this whole biome concept back from Oh WOW incredibility and flights of fancy, down to Earth and comprehensibility.
… just for producing them.
How? They emerge automatically by the production of self-similar units from a growth point. Crystals, macromolecules, organelles, cells, florets, shells, storms, gyres, galaxies. There are no genes just for producing spirals. Why would there be?
[quote=“martin-peter-clarke, post:47, topic:7725”]
Are there non-mathematical symmetries? Spiral growth is not a first order phenomenon, it’s a second order one. There are no genes for spirals. [/quote]
Actually there are. That is what causes plants to grow in accordance to the Fibonacci sequence.
However there are spiral genes. Spirals occur throughout the Universe especially in dynamically circulating objects from black holes to whirlpools.
There are no non-mathematical symmetries. A symmetry by definition is a mathematical equation.
It creates a mathematical equation that produces a balanced symmetry, especially in vertically growing biology, where vertical growth and maximum surface area are of utmost importance for photosynthesis
True, but what caused the original spiral gene? Evolution via natural selection, no?
Of course there are genes that are causal to spiral growth. But in nature there are many spirals that are not caused by genes but by a more subtle mathematical (logical) “guiding equation”.
Self-organization and self-similar growth are mathematical expressions.
Mathematics is a whole lot more than what is taught in school.
Mathematics are inherent in “fractals”
FRACTALS
fractal, in mathematics, any of a class of complex geometric shapes that commonly have “fractional dimension,” a concept first introduced by the mathematician Felix Hausdorff in 1918. Fractals are distinct from the simple figures of classical, or Euclidean, geometry—the square, the circle, the sphere, and so forth. They are capable of describing many irregularly shaped objects or spatially nonuniform phenomena in nature such as coastlines and mountain ranges.
The term fractal, derived from the Latin word fractus (“fragmented,” or “broken”), was coined by the Polish-born mathematician Benoit B. Mandelbrot. See the animation of the Mandelbrot fractal set.
Although the key concepts associated with fractals had been studied for years by mathematicians, and many examples, such as the Koch or “snowflake” curve were long known, Mandelbrot was the first to point out that fractals could be an ideal tool in applied mathematics for modeling a variety of phenomena from physical objects to the behavior of the stock market.
Since its introduction in 1975, the concept of the fractal has given rise to a new system of geometry that has had a significant impact on such diverse fields as physical chemistry, physiology, and fluid mechanics.
Yeah I know all that and all the stuff you cut and paste, but where’s the gene for spirals? For Fibonacci numbers? There are genes for prime numbers.
Why are you insisting on genes? That only applies to biology. I am talking about Universal geometry and the fractal properties of spacetime itself.
Does a spiral galaxy need genes to answer to the golden ratio? Does a black hole need genes? Does the wave function need genes?
Why do you insist on natural selection or quasi-intelligence being involved in simple, totally deterministic, logarithmic spirals?
What else would account for logarithmic spirals. That does smack of mathematical doings, no?
I don’t believe in an intelligent agency like God and that leaves only one option. There is a quasi-intelligent mathematical aspect to the very essence of spacetime.
And natural selection selects for symmetry, balance, and mathematical efficiency which are expressed in the natural selection of “best adapted” (efficient) complexities.
And mathematical processes have a certain quasi-intelligent Logic in common.
I believe it is entirely reasonable for a physicist like Max Tegmark to propose that the very geometry of spacetime lends itself to a Logical aspect that becomes expressed via mathematical processes. Many cosmologists are on record declaring that they are not creating universal mathematics but are discovering them.
It is the one hard fact that is demonstrably true. All human symbolic mathematics rest on the logical dynamics of universal processes.
We even use human symbolic mathematics to decipher the properties of the Universe and everything that happens within it. Mathematics predicted the existence of the Higgs boson. Mathematics allow us to make future predictions, because the universe obeys mathematical laws.
In the animal world many organisms and animals unconsciously use mathematics to survive.
The Mathematics In Nature!
Posted by DHAWAL PAGAY on DECEMBER 21, 2017
“The laws of nature are but the mathematical thoughts of God.”
These words by the famous mathematician Euclid lay the very foundation of nature and our understanding of its ways. It has always been intriguing as to how mathematics has found its way into our surroundings or should I put it the other way around? Be it in the sunflower where the Fibonacci series is observed or honeycombs in which hexagonal geometry is observed.
Humans have relied heavily on gaining inspiration from the forms of nature in order to formulate and develop designs, thus laying the foundations for the various principles that govern our lives, be it in the fields of Physics, Architecture or Mathematics.
https://articleandeverything.com/2017/12/21/the-mathematics-in-nature/
You probably know that nature is crawling with the Fibonacci numbers 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, etc. But have you ever seen a simple explanation for this phenomenon? This video is the result of my own quest to distill a really accessible explanation from existing research.
Interesting proof of the self-organizing mathematical logic in growth of spiral organisms and objects.
I found one error. He claims the sequences starts with 2. It doesn’t
The sequence starts with: 0, 1, 1, 2 ,3, 5, 8 …
Nevertheless the seeds do not grow randomly, but in accordance to a specific logarithmic “sequence”, because that is how spatial arrangements self-organize.
The clip did not disprove the mathematics of the sequence, he explains how it does self-organizes into a complex mathematical order.
It could also not self-organize and remain chaotic at the same time, but rather show how certain mathematical patterns always seem to self-organize and once started , they become part of the natural order.
Hence my perspective of a quasi- intelligent guiding equation. I am not saying that there is anything mysterious about that. In fact is as simple as physically possible, because it always evolves in the direction of greatest efficiency and that is the exact opposite of chaos. It is proof of order and order has mathematical properties.
AFAIK there is no possible other explanation that justifies our use of symbolic mathematics to describe the geometric and dynamic properties of spacetime.
No. Not at all. There is no magic. Nature, existence, being, does maths, sorry, ‘math’. Not the other way around. Logarithmic spirals are deterministic.
No that’s a fallacy. A meaningless one at that. You’ve substituted one unnecessary entity for another that explains nothing at all with marginally infinitely less superfluous mystical complexity.
It’s ALL about efficiency.
NOTHING to do with quasi-intelligence, whatever that means.