Why Philosophy Matters

Please allow an Earth Centrist to share his perspective.

“Why scientists haven’t cracked consciousness”
The science of consciousness still has no theory.

Chalmers was both a philosopher and cognitive scientist who was skeptical that science would be able to build explanatory bridges between neural correlates in the brain and the subjective experience of consciousness.
Famously, he called consciousness “the hard problem,” which he believed was sufficiently challenging to keep any explanation of consciousness at bay for at least a quarter of a century.

“to build explanatory bridges,”

Galileo split consciousness away from science 400 years ago

While the Western science of consciousness only grew into a reputable field over the past few decades, part of the reason answers remain so elusive may be buried in the deep structure of scientific inquiry itself, reaching back to the 1600s.

Galileo bracketed out the fuzzier domain of conscious experiences.

That’s part and parcel of the self-absorbed Abrahamic utilitarian undercurrent I speak of.

… were designed to pit theories of consciousnesss against each other, including global workspace theory (GWT) and integrated information theory (IIT).

“The STV starts with the idea that you can map every state of consciousness onto a perfect mathematical representation,”

But there’s no guarantee that some critical mass of correlations between brain states and feelings can ever tell us how or why consciousness happens.

I don’t know how to explain it but, to me, that article defined a metaphorical straitjacket upon our understanding. Seeking philosophy inspired mathematical answers to biological questions, …

{Just back from a walk with Maddy, waters still flowing in the ditch, what a difference it makes to the mood of a place and a personal feeling of peace of mind: all is well with the world, at least here and now, soak it in while ya got it.}

To me article and in fact this whole line of investigation is philosophical driven, rather than physiological.

I guess the running water got me to thinking about the entire western, scientific, philosophical, religious, Abrahamic experience as a flowing river, with our questions of God and Soul, infusing our thoughts, questions, and expectations, even into these modern academic debates.

Then there’s another stream of thought that explicitly recognizes physical reality and the crazy past four and half thousand, million years here on Earth, cosmic good fortune, geology, biology, life, creatures, that begat self-awareness, which begat more competent between creatures, that continued adopting to their living changing environments, resulting in some creatures who could even more efficiently process self-awareness, and so on, until an amazing creature such as humans wound up on top, nor now at least.

To this mindset (supported by all the Earth Sciences you can consume) there’s a fact driven null-hypothesis that Consciousness is the Inside Reflection of our body communicating with itself and getting on with living and interacting, that is processing and action. No mystery demanding outside origins, either religious or mathematical. Complex biology in action, it really that simple.

Today we can actually record our consciousness in action with varied imaging & processing methods. Some scientist have learned to mind-read our thoughts, so what the hell is all the academia, Templeton Foundation, media driven handwringing about?
How can all that can get dumped into irrelevance because we haven’t figured out the tiniest of cogs between our body processing sensing inputs and our brain orchestrating mind?

I believe that’s a disservice to society.

That we don’t know every last aspect, what if it’s we who aren’t smart enough to figure it out?

Why don’t these headlining scholars on their media tours show amazement that electricity production isn’t really understood. How in creation can metal and magnets in motion create electricity that can be harnessed to do work. Experts continue scratching their heads and working on cracking this nuanced puzzle.

Where’s the concern over the “mystery” of that?

Why aren’t we allowed to start our educated discussion with the fundamental understanding that our consciousness is actually factually produced and driven by our body interacting with its environment. Complex systems need to communicate, there’s no other possibly. Human’s are phenomenally advanced, so our consciousness dwarfs all others, but we follow all the pre-set rules every other creature does. So let’s move on to more important concerns and understanding?

There’s no great revelation at the other end of all this contrived handwringing about the origin of consciousness, or the mystery of why humans possess it.

That’s at the end of the Siddhartha story. Great analogy. More Zen than big G.

I think you’re listening to the wrong headlning scholars and getting upset about things that happened 500 years ago. If I had more time I’d highlight some of this. Already did in another thread. The Q&A is full of brilliant questions, like the kind you ask.

Not sure how to take that, at face value, sure why not I am a long time Dharma Bum. :wink:

Oh there it is. Thank you, I was looking for that, had it open on a file off to the side, then couldn’t find the originating post after watching it.

I took your advice and skipped the first hour
I’m afraid I walked away wondering what your point was, since it was an example of important points missed, that very much hobble the substance of the discussion.

I made some quick notes that I don’t have the time to clean up, perhaps I’m only sharing to show that I did listen to it. I working on another way of presenting my idea, to find out if it works any better so gotta run. :v:

Aliens, God & Evolution - Richard Dawkins & Brian Greene

Pangburn

1:19:13 (1:19:55) - Makes all the sense in the world to me

1:20 30 Totally.

1:20:50 Is science simply a faith system of a different stripe?

Good answer but there’s a more fundament reason he doesn’t get close to touching on.

1:23:00 Excellent response re seeking truth over defending a story line.

But it misses the key reality that both religion science come out of the mind.

1:24:… Looking at quantum entanglement as source of consciousness.

Here again totally ignores the fundamental fact that consciousness is a biological product, understanding it better will only happen through biology.

1:26:30 “Quantum Physics Implies our universe is consciousness?”

Reply: “NO!”

1:27:10 Greene comes up with another good response.

1:28:30 Other intelligent races looking like us?

Convergent evolution, form of creatures

1:31:ish Failure to provide an overview of connection between creature consciousness and creature form …

Before the Big Bang - “Why is there something rather than nothing?”

1:33:ish “Could we say that God created this, of course but it isn’t very interesting, it doesn’t answer any questions . . . finding our human heritage, and how we fit into the cosmos . . . a lot of value in that.

But, then fails to reference to the most basic lesson for any serious effort to find our place in the cosmos, namely Appreciating the Physical Reality ~ Human Mindscape divide, which would clarify a lot of this self inflicted confusion.

Dawkins does okay,

Then Greene simply piles on words

This particular segment was the definition of being trapped within our own mindscape, and losing sight of the Physical Reality ~ Mind divide and being too self-absorbed. Taking ourselves too serious.

1:37:05 It’s been said: “You can understand the machine of the brain, but not consciousness, and two things about physics I don’t understand, can consciousness be fueled by dark energy, or Schrodinger’s collapse of the wave function …

Black energy no

Penrose suggests it, so why not . . . I don’t see it, but I haven’t studied it. (Greene)

You have nothing to prove to me. I would allow you to pilot my antique car while I towed it with a rope. That’s as high as my compliments get.

Somewhere in there was a response to your, “Why aren’t we allowed to start our educated discussion with the fundamental understanding that our consciousness is actually factually produced and driven by our body interacting with its environment”. I think Greene said we don’t know enough. I was repairing garage flooring at the time, so I didn’t bookmark it.

Might have been at 1:37

On the Buddha thing, the river analogy, you said it was Abrahamic. I don’t think it is. Or, I guess you were saying the Abrahamic thing is part of the flowing river. Siddhartha would agree I think, that’s part of what he was contemplating.

I didn’t say the “river analogy was Abrahamic.”

I simply trying to say the intellectual/ philosophical legacy of Abrahamic thinking, could be looked at metaphorically, as a sort of river of thought that’s coursed through humanity over the past four thousand some years.

That all.

Oops my bad, thought I’d start at the beginning.
Gosh, they sure are in that over the top Hollywood glitz intro. The American Way, too much is never enough. - 1 point for philosophy as intellectual entertainment for profit.

2:00 Robin someone or other with the Center of Inquiry, hmmmm - you know, for all the investment they put into that show, you’d think they could do a little more to get the word out about their discussion forum. Guess there’s not enough revenue in it to care about their little red headed step child?


Okay back to 1:37:00, … ¿ Is consciousness fueled by dark energy or quantum events in the microtubules? One suggestion is as misguided as the other.
Consciousness is found within the fabric of biology - that’s the logical rational starting point for any serious inquiry into the origins of consciousness. But instead we’re still looking, if not for God, at least cosmic origins, it’s silly and self-absorbed, and butt backwards :cowboy_hat_face:

As for quantum events, every interaction between atoms or molecules is about quantum events, so that’s not telling us anything useful, but all of it does make for great mind candy.

What did you hear at that point?

The transformation of purely energetic quantum values into matter.

Okay, sorry, it was the question at 1:23:36, about quantum entanglement, which is not your question. Greene answers that we don’t know enough about consciousness to really say. Anyway, sorry for the wild goose chase.

Really, don’t bother with my references, because my point lately is that no matter what I say, you’ll dismiss one way or another. I don’t have answers to your questions. The only answer I agree with is “we don’t know”. Some 6-minute video flew by me last week of some guy saying that in long-form, eloquently, but why would I show that to you? What difference would it make?

So we once again dismiss the biological realm (not so much ‘the’ biological realm, as the human understanding of it. The human understanding of our selves.) for the greatest hits of the quantum realm.
Well done lads!

So, we once again are told by you what we dismissed or not, as if you know our minds better than we do.


Here’s where my mind was today.

Lots of sun I see, I can feel the heat off the ProPanel.
Yuck, I hope that rot doesn’t go much beyond that T1-11, almost looks like the backing might be okay, hope so.
It’s so nice not to be doing much of that stuff these days.

Please don’t ignore this part. :v:

Sorry to offend.