So, Lois and Doug, my brilliant logic and deep insight into history has not impressed you, but, here’s my question, what are you going to do about this? You talk about Islam like it’s a disease. Are you going to attempt to eradicate it? Is this just a fun “win” for you? Are you advocating for not letting refugees in? Why are you hanging on to this, despite millions of Muslims coexisting peacefully? Do you believe they are just biding their time, trying to lull you into a sense of complacency?
So, Lois and Doug, my brilliant logic and deep insight into history has not impressed you, but, here's my question, what are you going to do about this? You talk about Islam like it's a disease. Are you going to attempt to eradicate it? Is this just a fun "win" for you? Are you advocating for not letting refugees in? Why are you hanging on to this, despite millions of Muslims coexisting peacefully? Do you believe they are just biding their time, trying to lull you into a sense of complacency?It's not just Islam, I agree with Richard Dawkins that the belief in a literal God is delusional. And mass delusions applied fanatically and with any means at hand can be and are highly destructive. People who are absolutely convinced in the righteousness of their belief can't be reasoned with and in the case of Islam right now there are a great many of them that are more than willing to murder in this belief. Where are all the peaceful Muslims rising up collectively to end this madness. My guess is they like the murderous component of Islam closely connect Muhammad's supposed status as messenger from God with the fact he completely dominated on the battlefield using any means at hand. People thinking they're in communication with God aren't that unusual, people who think that who lead highly successful military campaigns and go on to found new religions are. As as far as I'm concerned Islam is a warrior religion because that is its origins and that is its default mode whenever stressed at all. The people murdering civilians across the globe are doing so following the example of their "Prophet" and the billion and half or so other "peaceful" Muslims are silent accomplices as they refuse to work as a whole to stop this insanity. Being peaceful means taking a stand against violence, not just standing back while your fellow members of any group engage in what is serial killing on a massive scale. So claims of Islam being peaceful are empty as long as billions of dollars are being spent advancing the most extreme versions of Islam and funding what are in essence violent insurgencies across the globe. In exactly the same model the "Prophet" used to crush his enemies in Arabia to kick this whole thing off. I'd like to know why you're so adamant in defending this belief system that has violence and intolerance built into it from the start? Keep in mind that for many Muslims there will be no real peace until there are no more Infidels. That's what you end up with when you create a belief system that divides humanity into believers and non-believers then equips the believers not just with the right to advance their beliefs by any means, but a duty to do so. Think Jehovah Witnesses with AKs and RPGs then tell me we don't need to be concerned about it.
I also think that any prominent Muslim that came out and openly condemned the use of violence on an institutional scale - which is exactly what’s happening when you look at al-Qaeda, ISIS and other associated Islamic religious/military organizations - would soon have a Fatwah placed on him and would be shot, blown-up or beheaded live online for daring to question the Prophet. Keep in mind this is exactly what Muhammad did all those years ago to create Islam in the first place.
Tell me again how Islam is a religion of peace when it would likely cost anyone their lives to try and organize an effective peaceful movement within Islam to stop the ongoing murder of civilians across the Earth.
Final thought on this.
You can’t have Islam without Muhammad.
And you can’t accept Muhammad without accepting the violence he used to bring about Islam in the first place. It’s never going to be a religion of peace because to do so would require rejecting its Prophet who was never a man of peace. He was a warrior.
It's hard to say what "Islam" CLAIMS re: whether it is a religion of Peace. George W. made that claim for it. And individual Muslims who have a peaceful interpretation of Islam, make that claim, especially when pressed to do so by the actions of persons who claim to be Muslims that do very public, violent, despicable things in the name of "Islam". But really, there seems to be no one individual or entity that can make such a claim for Islam. IMO it is a religion that can be interpreted by some to be a religion of peace, and obviously, it is also a religion that can be interpreted to support violence and abuse of human rights.There are parts of the Qur'an that can't be interpreted as anything but violent. Anyone who enbraces Islam must also embrace its violence. If they do not they are repudiating basic tenets of the religion. Many Muslims (who "embrace Islam") do, I think, sincerely consider Islam to be, essentially, peaceful. Outsiders can't interpret their "holy" doctrine for them. Although it can be relatively easy, I think, for outsiders and, indeed, for insiders of Islam to interpret the "holy" doctrine in ways that would support violence and human rights abuse.
I live in a country that has religious freedom. That means you can call yourself whatever you want and claim that your religion is whatever you say it is. If you say you are a Christian who doesn’t accept the 10 commandments, doesn’t believe in hell and isn’t so sure about the resurrection, you have the right to do that and I defend it.
DougC has completely ignored that Christians have, for centuries partitioned off the smiting God of the Old Testament. Except of course when it was convenient to use that old guy as a justification for keeping slaves or subordinating women. They were successful at this on a scale far out-weighing anything a few Islamic sects are managing today. Now, suddenly, less than a year after the Christian US finally says homosexuality is not a sin, suddenly 1.6 billion people are redefined as being in the dark ages.
Religion is not designed to deal with international relations. It is designed to create a group and say it’s better. It has always been those who recognized that those “others” are just as valuable as us that have been the ones to lead the fight toward improvements in human rights. I’m really not interested in any twist of atheism that simply labels people and says either they have to renounce the label, or be considered a threat.
Where are all the peaceful Muslims rising up collectively to end this madness.http://www.mpvusa.org/boardofdirectors/ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL097C8EAE47C9187D http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/why-dont-moderate-muslims_b_8722518.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/indonesian-muslims-counter-isis_565c737ae4b072e9d1c26bda
No I haven’t, read my posts.
If anything fundamental Christianity concerns me more than Islam because it involves the End Times where Jesus comes back to save the righteous…which also entails the destruction of the rest of us. And evangelicals are busy taking over the US military.
Or Jewish fundamentalism that holds that Yahweh isn’t going to send his Messiah until the Temple is rebuilt…which would entail the destruction of the Dome of the Rock and infuriate over a billion Muslims even further. And this feeding into scenario with many Muslims who feel they have a duty to spread the “enlightenment” of their Prophet. It’s a perfect religious storm in the making.
I’m all for religious freedom, I don’t support programming humanity for destruction based on what any skepitcal inquiry would show to be mass delusions. People are free to believe what they choose, they aren’t free to impose it on others or even worse to murder in the name of their beliefs and that includes all systems of religious belief.
Where are all the peaceful Muslims rising up collectively to end this madness.http://www.mpvusa.org/boardofdirectors/ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL097C8EAE47C9187D http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/why-dont-moderate-muslims_b_8722518.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/indonesian-muslims-counter-isis_565c737ae4b072e9d1c26bda Great we need more of that. But how does it compare to about $100 billion coming from the region that is the center of Islam to expand Wahhabism? Or the fact that the problem is growing worse not better. And see my post above, I don't single Islam out on this issue, if anything I'm more concerned about Evangelical Christians who are using Islamic violence as a tool to further their own agenda which is even more destructive. I truly don't want to see Armageddon. The same goes for Jewish fundamentalists who seemingly don't have a care in the world about the stresses being created by wanting to further their agenda. The problem isn't that Islam isn't peaceful, the problem is that delusional belief systems that contain violent aspects are inherently dangerous over time as they mutate further and further away from reality. Is the problem really going to be solved by people embedded within those delusional belief systems? I think garbage in garbage out really does apply here.
I’m not going to go hunting for some vague reference to other religions by you DougC, but I’m glad you said that. The solution is the same regardless, although it is more urgent for Islam.
They need to acknowledge these influences of their texts. They need to learn their history so they know what is in the Quran and what is in some obscure Hadith that has been misinterpreted. They need the right to interpret the text themselves. Christianity has been through this, but they did it by ignoring the texts. Very few Christians know about smashing babies heads on rocks or God commanding genocide and the taking of virgins from those they conquer, or the beating of slaves.
Instead of ignoring these texts and only answering the questions privately of the most curious parishioners, they should be teaching these passages, explaining their contexts and bottom-line, saying they are wrong and out-dated. They are afraid to do that because it opens the question of how do you know when God is right, but churches are finally starting to realize that by NOT doing that, they are losing the people who find those passages themselves.
But here’s the question, do you think a kid indoctrinated by ISIS is going to listen to your interpretation of the Quran, or to a liberal and peaceful Muslim who does the rituals and says they believe?
The solution needs to start with the acknowledgement that these “sacred” texts being passed off as facts are instead distortions of myths and metaphors that were never intended to be taken literally.
Maybe people will stop killing each other over who’s definition of God is correct when it’s admitted that no one has a definition for God. Let each individual find their own definitions, that’s real religious freedom.
Teach those kids who may end up brutally killing people for ISIS that all life is sacred because as far as we know this is all any of us will get. Do the same for people who think that if you kill enough heathens Christ will magically reappear or if you build some temple in the right spot no matter how much it may anger others then God will send his perfect man to come and be an example for the rest of us to follow.
The solution needs to start with the acknowledgement that these "sacred" texts being passed off as facts are instead distortions of myths and metaphors that were never intended to be taken literally.Start with the hardest possible thing. Great strategy.
Maybe people will stop killing each other over who's definition of God is correct when it's admitted that no one has a definition for God. Let each individual find their own definitions, that's real religious freedom.That's what I said.
Teach those kids who may end up brutally killing people for ISIS that all life is sacred because as far as we know this is all any of us will get. Do the same for people who think that if you kill enough heathens Christ will magically reappear or if you build some temple in the right spot no matter how much it may anger others then God will send his perfect man to come and be an example for the rest of us to follow.Again, you want to find the most illogical thinkers and work on them first. Worse, you don't see that your approach is insulting to those who don't think that way, so you'll never begin the conversation with people who would actually be willing to engage with you. And yes, of course, we need to bring education to the rural parts of the Middle East. I may not have said that directly, but I obviously implied it.
The solution needs to start with the acknowledgement that these "sacred" texts being passed off as facts are instead distortions of myths and metaphors that were never intended to be taken literally.Start with the hardest possible thing. Great strategy.
Maybe people will stop killing each other over who's definition of God is correct when it's admitted that no one has a definition for God. Let each individual find their own definitions, that's real religious freedom.That's what I said.
Teach those kids who may end up brutally killing people for ISIS that all life is sacred because as far as we know this is all any of us will get. Do the same for people who think that if you kill enough heathens Christ will magically reappear or if you build some temple in the right spot no matter how much it may anger others then God will send his perfect man to come and be an example for the rest of us to follow.Again, you want to find the most illogical thinkers and work on them first. Worse, you don't see that your approach is insulting to those who don't think that way, so you'll never begin the conversation with people who would actually be willing to engage with you. And yes, of course, we need to bring education to the rural parts of the Middle East. I may not have said that directly, but I obviously implied it. You asked, I gave my answer, there's simply no need at all for sarcasm here. I didn't say this isn't a monumentally difficult task, just that as long as so many people are living their lives based on fundamental misconceptions of what religion even is then tragedy will follow. And it will likely overwhelm us all if allowed to continue unchecked. There needs to be at least some acknowledgement from the start that any sort of reform of some of the world's largest religions is going to change them profoundly. Anything else is a lie.
You asked, I gave my answer, there's simply no need at all for sarcasm here. I didn't say this isn't a monumentally difficult task, just that as long as so many people are living their lives based on fundamental misconceptions of what religion even is then tragedy will follow. And it will likely overwhelm us all if allowed to continue unchecked. There needs to be at least some acknowledgement from the start that any sort of reform of some of the world's largest religions is going to change them profoundly. Anything else is a lie.Again with the tone policiing. Do you read your own words and see how profoundly arrogant you sound? I haven't mention it because this is the internet, everybody sounds like that. Take a little feedback now and then, it's good for you. I suggested that the answer is some sort of socialism more extreme than Bernie Sanders. I'm not exactly suggesting an easy way out of this mess we're in either. What I think you're missing is, your second sentence there says, "if we keep doing what we're doing, we'll all die". Except, we've been doing what we've always done and we've lived, so you've got an uphill battle. I think we can call the bluff of religion, say, okay, let's live up to your higher ideal, let's feed and clothe everyone and live by a higher standard. Of course reform is going to change them. They all reform all the time. Protestants are one of the few that actually named their reform "The Reformation", which is tragic since it didn't change things much. Religion is what each generation of adherents say it is. It's always bad logic, authority based rather than evidential, threats and promises that aren't real. These aren't just religious problems, they are logic problems.
Again with the tone policiing. Do you read your own words and see how profoundly arrogant you sound? I haven't mention it because this is the internet, everybody sounds like that. Take a little feedback now and then, it's good for you.Once more into the ad hominen. As I've already said no thank you which is why I commented on your use of sarcasm when merely pointing out your opinion is more than sufficient. Unless you have nothing left to say and would like to end this discussion which is what ad hominen says to me when someone starts to resort to it.
I suggested that the answer is some sort of socialism more extreme than Bernie Sanders. I'm not exactly suggesting an easy way out of this mess we're in either.I don't think there is an easy way out, I'm pretty sure that continuing to believe in things for which there is no evidence for that have had a clear record of producing some of the worst conflicts in history is going to end in the same. This time all conclusive.
What I think you're missing is, your second sentence there says, "if we keep doing what we're doing, we'll all die". Except, we've been doing what we've always done and we've lived, so you've got an uphill battle. I think we can call the bluff of religion, say, okay, let's live up to your higher ideal, let's feed and clothe everyone and live by a higher standard.Not with nuclear, chemical and biological weapons that are getting ever more powerful as technology advances. Read the articles on the infiltration of the US military by the Christian Evangelical movement and consider the religious and political instability of nuclear armed powers like Pakistan. We're already on a knifes edge, all it takes is a few fanatics pulling the right levers and we're all toast.
Of course reform is going to change them. They all reform all the time. Protestants are one of the few that actually named their reform "The Reformation", which is tragic since it didn't change things much. Religion is what each generation of adherents say it is. It's always bad logic, authority based rather than evidential, threats and promises that aren't real. These aren't just religious problems, they are logic problems.Call it revolution then, giving up the magical thinking that allows billions of people to believe in the equivalent of The Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't a simple reform. And it's pretty much what it's going to take to stop people from even thinking that killing in the name of God makes sense. And as long as people believe in complete nonsense some of them are going to take it to the ultimate level and start killing people that believe in different versions of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. "Those unclean over there believe in Whole Wheat Spaghetti, we must cleanse the world of their heresy to make us all safe". The problem isn't that some people aren't following the right kind of magical thinking, the problem is that far too many people are relying magical thinking in the first place.
I’m not going to change my personality for you. So I’m just going to ignore any further comments on that.
You don’t need to tell me about the dangers of nuclear war. I didn’t say the threat of our own destruction is not real. I’ve marched for peace a few times. My point was, you are going against the human condition, the tendency to stick with what is comfortable and what has worked in the past. You are part of a lucky few that has correctly assessed history and understand the danger of old world thinking in a modern age. But you can’t instantly bring everyone up to speed on your lifetime of education.
We’ve dealt with fascists and genocidal maniacs before. Yeah, these ones are bad, but I’ve never seen calling people’s beliefs “complete nonsense" be an effective strategy.
Do you have a plan beyond some sort of campaign to change the minds of half of the people in the world?
Not sure if I should assume you have no plan, or give you credit for sticking to your guns and cutting this off.
Maybe a few TEDs help:
For short: supporting moderate Muslisms might be more helpful than any other strategy. But obviously, militant atheism then stands in the way.
There is no better soil for Muslim terrorism as the anti-Islam reflexes of the West.
Why only Muslims need to propagate their Islam is a religion of peace?Forgot to answer the question: because it is the religion that is attacked the hardest as a religion of war, where most Muslims just want to live a peaceful life as we do. And, yes, Lausten's links say it: why we do not hear Muslim protests against violence? Simply because it is not in the news: good news is no news.
Where are all the peaceful Muslims rising up collectively to end this madness.http://www.mpvusa.org/boardofdirectors/ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL097C8EAE47C9187D http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/why-dont-moderate-muslims_b_8722518.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/indonesian-muslims-counter-isis_565c737ae4b072e9d1c26bda Indeed, excellent question. Where are they?