You leave emotion out of your logic. Look up what a sound argument is. You can make a logical argument that leads to a wrong conclusion. Simply leave out certain data. People do this all the time to trick others, take their money, get their vote, even get them to kill or kill themselves.Who are you responding to, Lausten? If you are responding to me, please explain your points in relation to my post. Lois Tita. See two posts up.
Is this really appropriate here, what effect will this kind of advocacy have on a child reading this for instance?That's why it's important to respond, so that causal browsers will not get the idea that we accept the opinions of this poster. As far as I'm concerned, nearly everything should be up for discussion.Any child reading this probably has his/her shit surprisingly well together. I'd love to hear them comment on this. Me I got nothing to add about suicide, there's a time and place for everything, but not for everybody. In any event, I want to ask Titano something altogether different, about something that makes life worth living for many, or worthless if you don't have any. That thing called love. Titano, you may know I’m in my first dog-relationship. Been around plenty of dogs, but it never got personal. Now it is and I got me a shadow, well unless there's something more interesting to check out, but then she comes back to me. I’m alone with her for a couple weeks. Meaning no lady affection for Maddy, just the german stick in the mud. I get busy, I’m comfortable with myself, time flies and then after a while there she is. It’s not always for a walk. Damn, she wants me to give her a little attention and affection. Quality one on one time even. When I take her along on short drives in my pick up, she sometimes nuzzles my arm until I drop it over her and stroke that wonderfully soft fur of hers. There’s sort of a feedback thing happening and it makes me feel good. Heck I even sing to her some, with the affection I’d show a baby. Okay, its worse, early on out of nowhere I made up a little morning song and actually wind up singing it most morning, shockingly out of character, hell I’m too uptight to join a drum circle with friends. None of it contrived for anyone else’s benefit, totally natural development. It just IS. So riddle me this: Why do dogs need love? Your point loses its luster when you realize that dogs are essentially bred to love us. Also to recite a quote: love isn't enough. Love simply isn't a reason to continue living, in fact it's often used to justify death. The thing is that none of us are obligated to live life and the things that bring pleasure only apply to being alive. When you die you don't need to deal with making your life worth living, no need for pleasure or love. Nothing at all. It removes the chores and chases of life. It also removes any want (including wanting to stay alive). Logically put, there isn't a reason to no commit suicide.
Read up on how our relationship to dogs evolved. It’s really interesting. Just read anything. Stop speaking from only personal experience.
Read up on how our relationship to dogs evolved. It's really interesting. Just read anything. Stop speaking from only personal experience.This is logic, goes beyond personal experience. Also dogs are irrelevant to the topic
Read up on how our relationship to dogs evolved. It's really interesting. Just read anything. Stop speaking from only personal experience.This is logic, goes beyond personal experience. Also dogs are irrelevant to the topic Is there a dog heaven?
sorry T, I’m funning with you. I’ve been having to look at this thread for weeks now.
I think its a bit presumptuous and what can I say, the dog thing has been on my mind and it sure seems more fun and interesting than this thread was.
Besides, I think all of us basically agree with you on your central point - in the big scope of things and time, nothing matters, it’s all useless and an illusion.
Hell you can find people seriously arguing that time and matter are illusions. So there.
So yeah, it don’t matter when or how anyone lives or dies in the end the sun is going to swallow the Earth.
You seem to choose to see emptiness everywhere. I choose meaning and connections everywhere.
But, it don’t matter in the end.
Well, then again, it does, to me 
even if not to anyone or anything else.
Besides I was given this time and place, I will live and experience it as well as I can.
You want be Phaedrus eating yourself up with the meaninglessness and hopelessness of ‘it all’.
So there,
I kinda like poking at you and hearing what you come up with.
Whereas others seem literal ciphers, it feels to me you are actually engaged in your struggle, , I don’t think you’re one of phonies.
That’s good enough for me, so I find myself fascinated (in a liking curious sort of way) in conversing with you.
Seeing what you come up with.
So forgive me for trying to drag you away from suicide and going OT on you. 
I think I’ve mentioned “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” by Robert M. Pirsig ©1974 if you ever visit a library give it a try.
No don’t ask anyone else, or waste your time with clueless internet reviews to see what it’s about,
gotta read it yourself. Tucked away by yourself in the back of a Greyhound bus driving coast to coast would be the best venue.
Although I imagine anywhere away from crowds will do.
(Interesting that’s the year after I graduated high school, timing was great, but that’s a different story.
Another one of those cosmic giggles some of us are blessed with. 
)
It’s not exactly meaninglessness only that suicide seems to be a more logical choice than living life in the ultimatel analysis. As I said, you don’t need to having meaning or experience joy in death. All your needs and wants are taken away by death, therefor nullifying them as an excuse to keep living.
It's not exactly meaninglessness only that suicide seems to be a more logical choice than living life in the ultimatel analysis. As I said, you don't need to having meaning or experience joy in death. All your needs and wants are taken away by death, therefor nullifying them as an excuse to keep living.If you take needs and wants out of consideration, you can't make any decision about anything. You've removed reasons from reasoning. You've taken data out of analysis. You can now put back only the things you want to include and reach any conclusion you desire. You started with a conclusion and constructed a world that fit it. That is a fantasy.
But there is a reason to die. It frees one from wants and desires. In life an unmet desire is a source of suffering as long as it’s unmet, yet once you meet it the satisfaction is far too brief. To be free of the chasing of your wants and desires seems logical. When one is dead there is no need to experience anything good, no work to do. So long as one is alive, one “must” experience such things lest they face a certain kind of hell. Wants and desires are, ironically, reasons to die. Saying there isn’t a logical reason to die (apart from being incorrect) doesn’t negate that there isn’t one to live. That without any logical reason to live, death would be the correct choice. You are also spared any pain in the future, pain that is far more likely to occur than pleasure, which I have stated only matters to the living. In death you avoid pain and don’t need pleasure. It is the logical choice.
I know what it means to be alive. Do you know what it means to be repetitive? Do you know it annoys the hell out of people?
But there is a reason to die. It frees one from wants and desires. In life an unmet desire is a source of suffering as long as it's unmet, yet once you meet it the satisfaction is far too brief. To be free of the chasing of your wants and desires seems logical. When one is dead there is no need to experience anything good, no work to do. So long as one is alive, one "must" experience such things lest they face a certain kind of hell. Wants and desires are, ironically, reasons to die. Saying there isn't a logical reason to die (apart from being incorrect) doesn't negate that there isn't one to live. That without any logical reason to live, death would be the correct choice. You are also spared any pain in the future, pain that is far more likely to occur than pleasure, which I have stated only matters to the living. In death you avoid pain and don't need pleasure. It is the logical choice.Sounds like you are a natural Buddhist.
Buddhism doesn’t advocate suicide
I know what it means to be alive. Do you know what it means to be repetitive? Do you know it annoys the hell out of people?You clearly don't since you haven't refuted my logic
Buddhism doesn't advocate suicideMaybe not, but it advocates non-existence.
But there is a reason to die. It frees one from wants and desires. In life an unmet desire is a source of suffering as long as it's unmet, yet once you meet it the satisfaction is far too brief. To be free of the chasing of your wants and desires seems logical. When one is dead there is no need to experience anything good, no work to do. So long as one is alive, one "must" experience such things lest they face a certain kind of hell. Wants and desires are, ironically, reasons to die. Saying there isn't a logical reason to die (apart from being incorrect) doesn't negate that there isn't one to live. That without any logical reason to live, death would be the correct choice. You are also spared any pain in the future, pain that is far more likely to occur than pleasure, which I have stated only matters to the living. In death you avoid pain and don't need pleasure. It is the logical choice.Sounds like you are a natural Buddhist.
Buddhism doesn't advocate suicideMaybe not, but it advocates non-existence. Our lil Siddhartha. Reiterations on a theme.
oh yeah
It's not exactly meaninglessness only that suicide seems to be a more logical choice than living life in the ultimatel analysis. As I said, you don't need to having meaning or experience joy in death. All your needs and wants are taken away by death, therefor nullifying them as an excuse to keep living.How about accepting that you are basically an animal and there are forces greater than yourself propelling you forward, no matter what the veneer of little gray cells tells you about how to spend that time.. Killing yourself gets you off the hook of running the "treadmill" - time stops. But then again, some kinda like the treadmill, motion, breathing, touching, doing things, making things. The big black sleep will come soon enough in any event. It seems like you're pissed off at life being what it is, seems like a waste of energy. Others suggest it's a better idea simply to figure out your dance partners steps and then go with the flow.
I just thought of a little lullaby you might enjoy.
Peggy Lee -- Is That All There Is? 1969 - YouTube
I know what it means to be alive. Do you know what it means to be repetitive? Do you know it annoys the hell out of people?You clearly don't since you haven't refuted my logic You don't understand logic. You have to establish your premises are true. You just repeat them.
You leave emotion out of your logic. Look up what a sound argument is. You can make a logical argument that leads to a wrong conclusion. Simply leave out certain data. People do this all the time to trick others, take their money, get their vote, even get them to kill or kill themselves.Who are you responding to, Lausten? If you are responding to me, please explain your points in relation to my post. Lois Tita. See two posts up. Ok. It would be helpful if you either quote the post you are respondong to or include the poster's screen name in your reply. Replies do not always directly follow the original post and it can be confusing. Lois
Here’s what I’m saying about your logic. Each of these is something you said yesterday, with a brief reply by me explaining why it isn’t “logic".
But there is a reason to die. – Assertion.
It frees one from wants and desires. – A fact, but doesn’t lead to a conclusion.
In life an unmet desire is a source of suffering as long as it’s unmet, yet once you meet it the satisfaction is far too brief. – Opinion. Conclusion relies on the relative assessment of suffering vs satisfaction. That varies across people and throughout life.
To be free of the chasing of your wants and desires seems logical. – Repetition of assertion.
When one is dead there is no need to experience anything good, no work to do. – True, but leaves out other relevant data, like the pleasures of being alive.
So long as one is alive, one “must" experience such things lest they face a certain kind of hell. – True, being alive and not working for your own happiness is a type of hell.
Wants and desires are, ironically, reasons to die. – Jumped to a conclusion.
Saying there isn’t a logical reason to die (apart from being incorrect) doesn’t negate that there isn’t one to live. – Ignoring relevant data that has been presented to you in this forum.
That without any logical reason to live, death would be the correct choice. – You didn’t make a case for this assertion. In fact you subverted it by saying “satisfaction is far too brief". So there are reasons, you just think it’s too much work to reach satisfaction.
You are also spared any pain in the future, pain that is far more likely to occur than pleasure, which I have stated only matters to the living. – Combining the ignoring of data and stating your opinion about the value of working toward your own happiness. Repetition.
In death you avoid pain and don’t need pleasure. – There is no “you" in death and no “needs", so this just doesn’t make sense.
It is the logical choice. – Don’t see much logic here.