Who's the speck of dust that wanted to be more?

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

No, the “conscious you” is all there is.

Seriously?

Ergo, I Think, Therefore I Am!

*Lausten, now do you see why I get so animated by philosophy muddling these matters? That’s why, my insistence that the Physical Reality ~ Human Mind along with explicitly and deeply recognizing ourselves as biological creatures, products of Earths process. With an incredible heritage that made us who we are.

That’s why anyone who wants to understand themselves and their consciousness, must start with the basics of why and how of creatures creating awareness, evolving into consciousness. That requires turning to deep time and such.

Etc., etc…

[lausten]

@citizenschallengev4

Lausten, now do you see why I get so animated by philosophy muddling these matters?

This is not philosophy. This is Write making up the meaning of words and misunderstanding science.

[lausten]

@write4u

Without consciousness you do not exist as a person.

The IRS would argue with you.

You need a lot of paperwork to pull the plug on someone. When I sleep, no one is worried about me existing. For surgery, once the anesthesia stops going in, my “me” starts working back to awareness. That’s the anesthesiologist’s job, to keep ME from waking up. They have to do that because I exist.

And you have said nothing about emotions. Just admit that statement was misstated. Emotions happen while I’m conscious.

[write4u]

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:59, topic:10593, full:true”]

@write4u

Your aware self. Your homeostatic function remains active, because it is autonomous from your conscious self.

You’re not listening.
Two splendid studies, accepted, but handwaving in this comment, since they sidestep what the above discussion is about.

Of course, I am listening. I’ve been working on this for a couple of years now.

And nobody is sidestepping what is YOU. We know what YOU means.
YOU are the creation of a 3lb lump of fatty tissue that miraculously can process information and be consciously and emotionally aware of it.

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:56, topic:10593”]
. . . Write you’ve said that everything goes through the neurons, but is that accurate?

AFAIK it cannot be otherwise. It is like the electric circuitry in a home. Take the circuit away and the home goes dark.

We ingest external substances that impact feeling and thinking, does all that really simply unfold within the neurons?

No, the information is processed and transported by neurons. The conscious part emerges by choice of focus. And that may be the only part that allows for choice (FW?) because consciousness does not rely on a deterministic physical processes, it is an **emergent ** quality.

Or what about the feedback loops that our own thinking creates . . .
There are so many layers of complexity that we only have a hint at, . . .

Yes, I realize that. But even as self-aware living organisms are an evolutionary miracle, one must also consider the limitations imposed by the physicality and maintenance of the host body. Humans are extremely complex but compared to a Dickinsonia.

Living Mysteries: Meet Earth’s simplest animal

Tiny Trichoplax, discovered in a fish tank, provides a window into the origin of animals

Dickinsonia was one of the first animals on Earth. It lived on the ocean floor 550 million to 560 million years ago. It looked like a giant version of the modern-day Trichoplax, the simplest animal now alive.
JOHN SIBBICK

more… https://www.snexplores.org/article/living-mysteries-meet-earths-simplest-animal#

but oddly, the most complex DNA resides in a “water flea”.

Water Flea Genome is the Most Complex Yet, and May Help Scientists Study Organisms’ Response to Stress

A microscopic, see-through water flea is the most complex creature ever studied, genomically speaking. Daphnia pulex is the first crustacean…

BY REBECCA BOYLE | PUBLISHED FEB 4, 2011 9:59 PM EST

A microscopic, see-through water flea is the most complex creature ever studied, genomically speaking. Daphnia pulex is the first crustacean to ever have its genome sequenced, and it turns out it has about 31,000 genes — 25 percent more than we humans.

Of all the invertebrate genomes sequenced so far, the water flea shares the most with us, and scientists hope these shared genes can help them understand how humans respond to environmental threats.

more …Water Flea Genome is the Most Complex Yet, and May Help Scientists Study Organisms' Response to Stress

[write4u]

@write4u

No, the “conscious you” is all there is. Without consciousness you do not exist as a person.

@citizenschallengev4

Seriously?

Ergo, I Think, Therefore I Am!

But when you are unconscious this changes to, “I do not Think, Therefore I Am Not”

@lausten

The IRS would argue with you.

No, you cannot argue with an unconscious person. “There is nobody home”, even as the house is lit (homeostasis).

[lausten]

@write4u

No, you cannot argue with an unconscious person.

The IRS doesn’t need you to be conscious to get your money out of your bank account. They don’t argue about that.

I meant they would argue with conscious you, Write4U about unconscious people still being legally people

[write4u]

@lausten

I meant they would argue with conscious you, Write4U about unconscious people still being legally people

Do you think that the unconscious person is aware of all that consternation?
The unconscious person experiences NOTHING! The body may be there but the “mind” is dead except for subconscious homeostatic control purposes, often medically assisted.

When your brain is dead, you are dead to the world. The mind that was YOU is no longer functional. Data is no longer being processed by the brain.
(note, individual cells also have memory (short term) which allows the brainless slimemold to solve and navigate mazes.)

But as you stated it, I don’t see your analogy.

[lausten]

@write4u

Do you think that the unconscious person is aware of all that consternation?

Absolutely irrelevant to the discussion of what self is, what consciousness is.

@write4u

When your brain is dead

What does brain death have to do with this?

[mriana]

@write4u

[quote=“citizenschallengev4, post:56, topic:10593”]
. . . Write you’ve said that everything goes through the neurons, but is that accurate?

AFAIK it cannot be otherwise. It is like the electric circuitry in a home. Take the circuit away and the home goes dark.

I have to say, write4u is right about this. Everything goes through neurons. That’s how the brain works and you have to have neurons in the brain to aid digestion.

[write4u]

@lausten

@write4u

Do you think that the unconscious person is aware of all that consternation?

Absolutely irrelevant to the discussion of what self is, what consciousness is.

But just now we are discussing “unconsciousness”, aren’t we?

[citizenschallengev4]

@write4u

YOU are the creation of a 3lb lump of fatty tissue that miraculously can process information and be consciously and emotionally aware of it.

@write4u

AFAIK it cannot be otherwise. It is like the electric circuitry in a home. Take the circuit away and the home goes dark.

What about hormones and ingesting drug of whatever variety?

@write4u

The conscious part emerges by choice of focus.

Do you have a paper that explains what that’s supposed to mean?
Who’s focus?

@write4u

Yes, I realize that. But even as self-aware living organisms are an evolutionary miracle, one must also consider the limitations imposed by the physicality and maintenance of the host body. Humans are extremely complex but compared to a Dickinsonia.

@write4u

but oddly, the most complex DNA resides in a “water flea”.

I have no idea how that’s supposed to related to this discussion.

@mriana

I have to say, write4u is right about this. Everything goes through neurons. That’s how the brain works and you have to have neurons in the brain to aid digestion.

Flush your system with caffeine, or alcohol, cocaine, marijuana to opiates, I don’t claim to know the answer, but it’s pretty unbelievable that all gets introduced through neurons before impacting the system.

If someone can produce some articles that support that suggestion, I’m interested. Until someone can do that, we’re definitely out running our headlights.

Heck CO2 build up, will profoundly impact your system, and too little oxygen make you act drunk, is that via neural activity? Or an assault upon neural activity?

@write4u

But just now we are discussing “unconsciousness”, aren’t we?

I though we were discussing if you existed when you’re “unconscious.”
It’s about the body being limited to conscious and unconscious, or not, It’s about appreciating it’s still way more complex than we currently understand.

[lausten]

@citizenschallengev4

Do you have a paper that explains what that’s supposed to mean?

No he does not. He has papers about other things and claims they support his conclusions.

Just because the nervous system connects everything in the body, that doesn’t mean it creates emotions. Just because you aren’t “you” if you remove your neurons, that doesn’t mean neurons are the only thing that create thoughts and feelings. If I remove your heart, you won’t be “you” either, but that doesn’t mean your “you-ness” resides in your heart.

[coffee]

Gut bacteria are significant influencers of emotion.
link

[mriana]

@citizenschallengev4

Flush your system with caffeine, or alcohol, cocaine, marijuana to opiates, I don’t claim to know the answer, but it’s pretty unbelievable that all gets introduced through neurons before impacting the system.

Cocaine blocks the reuptake of dopamine, a neurotransmitter. Alcohol depresses neurotransmitters. I can continue, but everything you listed affects neurotransmitters in one way or the other. All you have to do is go to the APA (American Psychological Association) and I’m sure you can find articles explaining Cocaine’s affect on neurotransmitters as well as other stuff you mentioned.

[lausten]

@mriana

affects neurotransmitters

There is no debate that neurons transmit information. There is no debate that they show electrical impulses related to reports of feelings and sensations.

Neither of those tell me anything about our innate senses, or how we feel about who we are. The ego and the id. I’m not just a collection of electronic signals any more than I am just a mass of blood traveling through veins.

The circulatory and nervous systems share in common most of the things you are claiming as evidence as evidence for “neurons are you”.

And you haven’t addressed subconscious at all.

[citizenschallengev4]

@mriana

, but everything you listed affects neurotransmitters in one way or the other.

Okay. I agree, as far as it goes.
I was pushing against this comment.

@write4u

The brain is only connected to the body via neurons and does not experience any direct data other than what is transported via neurons

Of course neurons are the highways and byways of the body. The point is that other aspects of the body systems share the load.

Coffee pointed out, your stomach and guts are involved with a lot of important biochemical cascades.

Or the latest surprise that was right there in plain sight, since the beginning of butchering, fascia (the butchers guide) .

The 19th-century anatomist Erasmus Wilson called this tissue – now known as fascia – a natural bandage. In dissection, that is exactly what it looks like: sheets of white, fibrous connective tissue that are strong yet flexible and perfect for keeping muscles and organs in place. They are also sticky, gloopy and get in the way of looking at the muscles, bones and organs they cover. Which explains why, for years, anatomists cut this tissue off, chucked it away and thought little more about it.

Fascia: The Body's Remarkable, Functional Glue

SciShow - Apr 11, 2019

There’s a connective tissue running all throughout your body that not only holds all your muscles and organs together, but also has sensory and mechanical properties that may explain some poorly understood medical phenomena.

Fascia: The long-overlooked tissue that shapes your health

Or if you want to take a deep dive,

The Role of Fascia in Movement and Function

University of California Television (UCTV) - 1:21:00 - July 2017

[citizenschallengev4]

@lausten

And you haven’t addressed subconscious at all.

I find it easy to visualize that what’s happening inside the fascia and viscera as part of my subconscious and important to making me who I am.

I take the easy way out, by accepting that I am a biological being and every millimeter of my body works together to make the whole me, and the personality that projects via my mind broadcasting through my body, is a product of that whole, and how it deals with its situation.

Folds within folds of harmonic cumulative complexity flowing down the cascade of time.

Consciousness being the inside reflection of my body in action.

[mriana]

@lausten

The ego and the id.

You forgot the superego.

@lausten

And you haven’t addressed subconscious at all.

How do you address the subconscious? It too is affected by the neurons, such as serotonin and dopamine. If one or both of those neurochemicals are off, most suffer depression, especially if it’s lasts more than two weeks. That’s just one example as to our mood and thoughts are affected by neurons in our brain.

[citizenschallengev4]

@mriana

That’s just one example as to our mood and thoughts are affected by neurons in our brain.

Okay, but don’t forget all the different pathways for effecting neurons.

Nor the part that other bodily systems play.
A veritable symphony

[lausten]

@mriana

How do you address the subconscious?

Not understanding the question. I’m saying Write4U only talks about the input reception function of neurons. They are also doing other work for us. They are already active before we start our conscious life.