what would I need to convince me of God?

Religion and Secularism
61

3point, Don’t take a debate personally. I am just pushing some buttons to get responses on the subject matter. I think most of you are so far in the Christian Bubble that you can’t see outside of the bubble.

You ask me how I could respond like that to anything that you wrote. Simple, you said that I have zero level of required evidence to understand science. That is after I explained that when it comes to religion that facts are not necessarily following science. And I used the example of aether winds to back my point.

Instead of working on the 10 fabrications per posts. As that would take a lot of time. Could I get you to just answer one of my questions? That should be pretty simple.

Is chess one of your board games?

62

Lausten - Like I said you don’t know god in the same light as I see god. For the first 250 years of your Christian god you didn’t have enough membership to amount to a hill of beans. Then half the population gets wiped out by a plague and your membership skyrockets. Just hang in there, maybe a rock from space will hit the earth and then your god will come through for you. You will see the light and power of your deity.

Why in the hell are you even still debating whether or not your god has let you down? Or your level of interest in god. At this time in our lives we have bigger fish to fry. You have wordsmith skills and practical logic. Try and view the system that Jefferson and Jesus was working on. The hardest and most stressful job is working with people. Civilization is no easy task to put together. But look at all the tools we have available to us today. We should be able to lay out all the pieces of what it takes to have a civilization and come to agreement on the subject.

You guys seem to more concerned about what I had for dinner last night than how the caste system works in a successful civilization.

What I have point out to you is that god is here because civilization is here. Deity is just one of the pathways that grew out of needs of the civilization. I am telling you there are other pathways. And America was built on one of those other pathways. America needs its people to understand exactly how their government should work and fix what is not working. The world is counting on America to do the right thing. How long are the Atheists going to be spinning their wheels and going nowhere? Are you going to sit back and wait for the Christians to fix things?

63
MikeYohe said,

And I used the example of aether winds to back my point.


And what point is that? Are you proposing that if aether winds exist, they are miracles and not subject to scientific analysis?

MikeYohe said,

How long are the Atheists going to be spinning their wheels and going nowhere?


May I remind that most scientists are atheist and are probably the most productive minds on earth.

MikeYohe said,

Is chess one of your board games?


You do know chess was invented by a mathematician and when he was offered a reward by the Pharaoh, he told the Pharao that his reward was simple: Place one grain of wheat on square one and double the number of grains for each square on the chess board.

The Pharao who was not a mathematician thought this was a very modest reward, at first. But when we do the maths in accordance to the exponential function, the pile of wheat on the last square would amount to about 500 times the worldwide harvest of wheat.

This scenario is very common and probably is the reasobn why religious wars are so frequent. Theists don’t believe in mathematical terms but in miracles, because they do not understand science.

You don’t need to understand religion to be religious, but you do have to be a physicist and mathematician to understand the physical world and by extension the creative process.

64

Just noticed this in wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:FilePath/Double_crown.svg

Am I overly sensitive or does this depict a king with an erection sitting on a throne?

65

Idk about that, but it seems a bit kinky, whatever it is. Hey! What if someone opens that up at work?

66

Instead of fishing, why don’t you look up the history of aether winds and then you would not ask such a question. The aether winds were scientifically analyzed. When the results were not what the scientists expected they refused to believe the science tests were correct. After all, all the scientists in the world can’t be wrong.

 

How long are the Atheists going to be spinning their wheels and going nowhere?

May I remind that most scientists are atheist and are probably the most productive minds on earth.

OK, I agree that could be possible.

You like mathematics. So, let’s take a look at Hypatia. A great mathematician scholar.

Pre-Hypatia you have the Hyksos bringing grains, vegetables and farm animals to the Middle Kingdom. The olive was the most helpful. Changed civilization, including religion. Because of olive oil the people now had time for philosophers, education and the building of civilizations. Alexander the Great built an empire that controlled the olive industry. And built the city of Alexandria, a center of culture and learning. As education expanded a Christian progressive movement of knowledge was formed based upon philosophy, math, morals, rules of laws. Alexandria had a university with the greatest collection of knowledge in its library and one of the greatest museums ever assembled.

Then Rome took control and a plague caused another branch of the Christian religion that was not progressive to expand in Rome’s northern territory and compete with the progressive Christianity. The Christian religion from the north became the only religion allowed in the Roman territory.

Hypatia - A noted Alexandria mathematician and astronomer name Theon who was killed by the Christians had a daughter name Hypatia who was a famous mathematician in history. Hypatia was dragged from her carriage into the Christian church and her body was torn apart by the Christians.

Point being. Hypatia and the other great productive minds were scientists and scholars. They could not even save themselves or stop the Roman Christian religion from destroying the civilization? So, what makes you think that today’s scientists are any better? The problem was the caste and the morals. Two of the main problems America is having today. And two of the problems that are not being addressed.

Another example is Russia. Top scientists and major military. Yet, if you don’t keep all the parts of a civilization operating together the walls can come tumbling down.

67

That’s a bizarre twisting of the Hypatia story.

68
"Is chess one of your board games?"
Not chess. I might play Nightmare Chess (look it up, it's the only way to play chess), but that's only with my son once or twice a year. My games are 'Euro' style games.
"3point, Don’t take a debate personally. I am just pushing some buttons to get responses on the subject matter."
You attach my name to something I didn't say, so I am free to be annoyed [see the examples below.]
"I think most of you are so far in the Christian Bubble that you can’t see outside of the bubble."
Seriously dude! Are you mental? What is a "Christian Bubble" and what makes you think I'm in one? You've mentioned it a few times now, and as a nonchristian, I highly doubt I'm in one.
"...you said that I have zero level of required evidence to understand science."
Not sure what that string of words means. I did say "Your [Write4U] threshold of evidence required to believe something that contradicts all available science is (justifiably) high. Mike’s is (sadly) almost zero." If that's what you're trying to paraphrase, then I stand by it. Feel free to show me I'm wrong.
"That is after I explained that when it comes to religion that facts are not necessarily following science. "
FYI: Religion doesn't get a special, weakened, definition of 'fact'. I can see we're going to get bogged down in definitions of the words like 'fact', 'evidence' and 'proof', so let's stop now.
"And I used the example of aether winds to back my point."
I read that post and you seemed to say that 1) people believed aether wind existed, 2) Einstein didn't and was mocked, 3) science explained what was really going on. If that's what you said, I don't get your point. Please explain what you were trying to say.
69

Earlier, you said;

And the numbers for Jesus’s religion was much bigger than Paul’s Christianity. I don’t remember the numbers but there was a big difference in the numbers for the first 3 hundred years of Christianity. Jesus’s religion was said to be larger than the Christianity that Paul was preaching.
Which was confusing since you are using your “Jesus’ religion” reference that only you know what you mean, and sourcing it with “was said” which is a classic slippery statement that means you don’t know where you got that but you’ll repeat it anyway. Then you said;
For the first 250 years of your Christian god you didn’t have enough membership to amount to a hill of beans.
Which is at least accurate, except for the part about “my” Christian god. I don’t have a god, none, no god. That’s just one small example how you make up things about me, about facts of history, and can’t even be consistent in posts that are a couple days apart.
70

Lausten,

That’s a bizarre twisting of the Hypatia story.

Two pathways, one is known as Gnostic. The other is becoming more known as Paul’s religion. I call it Paul’s religion. I don’t think Paul did anything wrong or had any malice intentions. Paul was smart and a good guy. It was most likely many branches of Paul type of Christianity had one or more churches up until the councils. Just like the Gnostic teachings had many branches.

Over a decade ago now I was looking for a third source to backup the location of The Garden of Eden. At this point I was petty sure the garden could be found on a map, tapestry or mosaic. I started looking for religious maps showing all the religious establishments and points of interest. I was mystified by not finding any maps of the type and quality I was looking for. I needed a map not a picture. Logically they should have been making these types of maps. Having to give up on that task for that lack of any maps of the type I was looking for was disappointing and mystifying for me.

Then a map was found in a very small out of the way and forgotten remote castle in Ireland and made the news. It was exactly the type of map I was looking for. It had all the religious locations and points of interest. Including the location of the Garden of Eden being exactly where I thought it was located. There was not a lot of religious depiction in the map like a lot of religious pictures of the period but what the map did depict that shocked me was the areas and monasteries to avoid because of cannibalistic monks. I was aware of the stories of altars and animal sacrifices in some of early Christian churches. I took that to be an off shoot of maybe the Jewish religion where they did animal sacrifices. No big deal. But, cannibalism, now that is a big deal. And it explains why all those types of maps are not around anymore. Not only did the Church clean house on all other religion, it had to some house cleaning of its own to do.

Lausten, here is a bizarre twisting of the Hypatia story that you need to draw a collusion on.

The port city of Alexandria was the culture and educational capital of the known world. Had a ranking in the seven wonders of the world. Was know for its universities, libraries and museums. Is it possible that the Roman Church wanted to destroy Alexandria and its religion that was based upon science?

The Christians dragged Hypatia into the church. Reason? Is that a normal place for a sacrifice? Was there an altar in the church? Why dismember the body of the greatest mathematician of the time. Is that normal for a sacrifice to dismember the body? At this point there can only be speculation. But what are the odds that something really bizarre went on?

71
" I was petty sure the garden could be found on a map, tapestry or mosaic."
Wouldn't the flood have destroyed all documents and most other artifacts?

If Noah’s family had to repopulate the earth, by the time anyone settled in a place where artifacts were located, I highly doubt those artifacts were in any condition to send to Ireland.

A flood high enough to submerge mountains would require a rate of water flow that would demolish almost everything manmade, and the subsequent currents and sediment deposits would trash and bury anything left.

Of all the nonsense in the Bible, nothing comes close to the many levels of insanity involved in the flood.

 

72
It was exactly the type of treasure map I was looking for. I knew it would surely lead me to the treasure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtxbIkfDDO4
73

Listening to Mike talk about Bible stories and Christian history gets me to thinking about people arguing over whether Sherlock Holmes was actually killed at Reichenbach Falls and that it was actually an imposter who showed up later to solve all those crimes.

74

3point, at the time the project of finding the location of The Garden of Eden was to establish the datum points and parameters of the Age of Domestication. Which for some reason had been left out of the history books. Therefore, I was more interested in the animals and vegetables than any religious stuff. Religion and civilization go together and are really intermixed a lot and you can’t have religion without civilization. And you can’t have civilizations without high protein levels. The claims were that religions in the East went back 300K. Did not want to deal with any data past the human bottleneck which was 80K ago and wanted to move those datum points up to the creation of man which was looking like 12K years ago. As one of the keys to civilizations is protein. Needed to know the location of The Garden of Eden because the data showed that there was a belief before Charles Darwin in Europe that everything was first created in the Garden of Eden. Then as Europe started to pull out of the Dark Ages the thinking changed to Europe being more central in the creation process.

For example. Dogs. The wolf and fox. Europe claimed that there was about 40 breeds of dogs and they were created in Europe. Wait. Make that 30 in Europe and 10 in India. Wait the facts have changed again. Make that 20 in Europe and 20 in India. Wait the scientific facts keep changing. Make that 30 in India and 10 in Europe. Ah, we just got the 2018 scientific fact in and we need to make that 40 in India and 0 in Europe. But that is not a problem because there are new breeds of dogs. The American Kennel Club currently recognizes only 167 breeds and now, there are about 340 breeds recognized by the World Canine Organization. But the area of origination from the wolf and fox is still India.

Point being. If you said the scientific facts say that 20 breeds were from Europe and 20 from India. You would be correct in a window of the timeline. When facts are written down, they are timestamped. The bible is not a living book. It is a timestamped book. Thus, the facts of the flood may be correct for a window in history only. As most religious stories were first verbal. Sometimes the stories window of time got intermixed with other stories and become useless for the timeline because the data can’t be timestamped. The flood is one of those stories that may be made of many stories and is hard to timestamp.

I think it is best just to keep an open mind and an eye on the big picture and not to get hung up on the stuff that is hard to answer. Who knows, in a couple of years, the answer may just make the news.

75

Lausten,

And the numbers for Jesus’s religion was much bigger than Paul’s Christianity. I don’t remember the numbers but there was a big difference in the numbers for the first 3 hundred years of Christianity. Jesus’s religion was said to be larger than the Christianity that Paul was preaching.

 

Lausten - Which was confusing since you are using your “Jesus’ religion” reference that only you know what you mean, and sourcing it with “was said” which is a classic slippery statement that means you don’t know where you got that but you’ll repeat it anyway. Then you said;

 

Yes, the two major pathways can be a little confusing at first. Jesus’s teachings are still in the bible. That is why Jefferson was able to cut out the deity and still have a usable bible. There is Jesus’ religion – Gnostic. And the Religion of Jesus – Paul’s teachings.

 

Lausten - Which is at least accurate, except for the part about “my” Christian god. I don’t have a god, none, no god. That’s just one small example how you make up things about me, about facts of history, and can’t even be consistent in posts that are a couple days apart.

What do you mean, you don’t have a god? Is god not your main topic? I am not just picking on you. I think most all poster here are still in the Christian Bubble. You don’t see it because you are still inside of the bubble. I can see your arm go up in the air when crowd shouts Sieg Heil.

There have been so many books written about the Gnostic teachings that they are going out of print. Go to the Gnostic Society and they break down some of the books into introductory, intermediate and advanced reading. Go to the bookstore and they have shelves of gnostic books for sale. Yet, this is a taboo item here for the so-called atheists to talk about. Why?

Let me tell you why. Because it is really not about god or Jesus. It is about a concept or idea. If that concept shows up on a piece of toast. That’s good. If new data shows up, that’s bad. Where’s the logic?

The morals are the conscientious foundation of unity that the god concept is built upon. To ask people to follow morals without the idea that there is a judge who will punish those who do not follow the rules and no reward for those who do, would require another mindset. That mindset was in Jesus’s gnostic Christian religion. But the people see it as blasphemy to look at or study any other mindset.

When you start to realize that Jesus may have been an atheist. You will be outside of the bubble. Once you understand Jesus’ viewpoints. Many of the text in the bible will start to make logical sense and have clear and to the point meanings.

76

Could it be you are in this bubble? I respond to posts about God because I see how religion has corrupted philosophy and harmed human progress. I’m aware of God talk because it’s everywhere you go. I’ve responded to your posts about Gnosticism too, but I don’t respond to posts that simply say I’m not responding to a subject. Say something you believe and I’ll respond to it.

I’ve already done the work to “understand Jesus’ viewpoints”. They are many and varied. They are of course the viewpoints of authors spread across centuries, using the character of Jesus as their story line. There’s nothing clear about the Bible. You are doing what every unclear religion has ever done, telling me I need to reset my viewpoint to your viewpoint, study the scriptures again, then I’ll come to the same conclusion you did.

 

77

Question – why study something you have no interest in or don’t care about, like religion?

Because, religion is about civilizations. Which includes Rules of Laws and everything that America is based upon. Example to understand why a judge can rule against the Presidents order. It would be good to understand history and Jesus is part of the reason that judge has power over the President.

Point being – Jesus and Mary along with a long list of others. Created the pathway for America. We should all understand this.

78

Lausten - No, I am not preaching to you about Gnostics. I am just saying it was the pathway that Jesus was on. Most of that pathway has been destroyed by the Church. The point I am trying to make here is that when we hear the word “GOD”. My thinking is most likely different than yours. I have many different viewpoints based upon the point in the timeline being referred to. And I have the ancient viewpoint that god means “knowledge”. Meaning I have established viewpoints based upon a timeline. My viewpoint is of no importance. What is important is establishing the viewpoints of key people from Jesus to Jefferson and establish what system America was built upon. The progressive movement in Europe and the beginning of America seemed to be in line with deist or atheist thinking about god. How do we get back to that viewpoint?

79

This is pretty preachy dude:

What do you mean, you don’t have a god? Is god not your main topic? I am not just picking on you. I think most all poster here are still in the Christian Bubble. You don’t see it because you are still inside of the bubble. I can see your arm go up in the air when crowd shouts Sieg Heil.

Go to the bookstore and they have shelves of gnostic books for sale. Yet, this is a taboo item here for the so-called atheists to talk about. Why?


 

How do we get back to that viewpoint?
You can have your viewpoint. It does not interest me. It's not based on anything rational.

 

80
Question – why study something you have no interest in or don’t care about, like religion?
I've answered that, on this page, and many times in the past.