what would I need to convince me of God?

3point14rat said,

Instead of defining a specific god, could we simply say ‘any god’?


Not, unless you ascribe the same properties to all gods.

Actually you already started it;

a) All Gods have “supernatural” properties. i.e. Existing outside the Natural world; no evidence, unprovable, unfalsifiable.

b) All Gods can perform “miracles” , i.e. Thunder and Lightning, Floods, Draughts, Pandemics, Volcanoes

c) All Gods have “human” emotions, i.e. love, hate, jealousy.

Wanna add to the list?

I’m happy with only requiring the definition to be item b) on your list. Making the definition as broad and basic as possible will help to prevent people from saying there’s some aspect of the definition that doesn’t apply to their god.

Is there a reason to make the definition more than, “A god is an entity that can perform “miracles””? How would adding to that definition improve anything or change anyone’s answer? Every addition to the definition eliminates potential gods.

A tree or animal spirit can qualify as a god, and it will also yield the same answer than if you expanded the definition to be the specific god of the Williams Lake Alliance Church.

3point,

There are two pathways.

Jesus preached both pathways for political reasons. But Jesus’s pathway is what became known as Gnostic teachings. God was understood to mean “knowledge”. The most famous god RA was nothing but knowledge. Ra means “knowledge”. Religion was about morals. Wisdom was about how to use god or knowledge. There was a balance between wisdom of knowledge and the morals. That is known as the rules of laws. As civilizations grew and advanced the question became who was going to judge the rules of laws. Jesus’s ideas were first tried by America with the Supreme Court. Paul’s ideas were along the lines with Jesus but got moved into the Church and a deity. Paul’s movement chose the Church over the Roman government to be the judge.

The European movement became progressive and rejected the deity in a progressive movement. There were wars and end to slavery in Europe as the progressive movement moved from the Deity Pathway more to the Deist Pathway that Jesus had taken.

America was built upon that Deist Pathway movement. A very progressive movement. The missionary from Europe had taken the Deity Pathway to Africa and the slaves brought a strong Deity Pathway to America. A common factor with the Deity Pathway is that it expanded during wars and plagues in areas of low understanding of history and education. The Civil War in America cause a Christian Bubble that we are still in today.

The point being. There is very little difference between Deism and Atheists. Jesus and the founding fathers were all Deists. The Deists understand that people need religion. Because civilizations need morals. But the deists believe the deity is not needed and is not the proper system because they prefer a system with less caste.

The point I want to make to Lausten is that it is easy to tell where people are in the Christian Bubble because there are words they will not say or talk about. A sort of line that will not be crossed over. One is about our founding fathers being Deists. All the proof is there, and it is past the point of even debating. Another is that progressive has always been about fighting the Caste System. Yet, how many people here will not even say the word caste? Then there is the time factor. Why talk about the same things that you were talking about twenty years ago and will be still talking about twenty years from now with no progress of any value?

I just got three books in - Jesus,Interrupeted, Misqoting Jesus and Lost Christianities. The point being, I already know a lot about Jesus. But the fact that the books are being written is a major point. As the major religious scholars agree that most scholars have understood the facts about religion for the last two hundred years. But are just now being able to start discussing these facts with the public. So, why are you debating so call scholars talking about the powers of deities is beyond me. Move on.

Our founding fathers died almost two hundred years ago. Jefferson said that he hoped that Americans would view the stories of deities as they viewed the Brains of Jupiter. The Brains of Jupiter was the number one fictional story at the time of Jefferson.

 

A sort of line that will not be crossed over. One is about our founding fathers being Deists. All the proof is there, and it is past the point of even debating. -- Mike
I never questioned this

Caste – there, I said it

So, why are you debating so call scholars talking about the powers of deities is beyond me. -- Mike
Because the average person, who votes, doesn’t know this stuff. They continue to elect dominionist leaders.

 

Deism can also be defined as the view which asserts God's existence as the cause of all things, and admits its perfection (and usually the existence of natural law and Providence) but rejects divine revelation or direct intervention of God in the universe by miracles.
Let me try to get something straight - Is someone trying to claim that Deism is akin to the current level of the right-wing's Pimping Jesus for power and profits - not to mention brainwashing and mind control?

Yes, you got that right. The next question should be. Did Jesus do that too? And the answer again would be – yes. Jesus had to deal with Hellenistic Judaism, Greeks, Romans, Sadducees, Zealots, Pharisees, Essenes, Orthodox Jews, Egyptians and several Christian movements and all their gods and beliefs. The difference is that Jesus was trying to build a better civilization where the right-wing pimping you are talking about is for self-enrichment.

The question that is hard to answer is. When you hear the word “God”, what do you think? Or what did people like Jefferson think? Deity or Knowledge. We know what Jesus thought – Knowledge. And Jesus claimed god was in all of us. That’s why morals is to teach wisdom. Knowledge is no good if not used correctly.

Another point. If most of the saying of Jesus came out of India. Jesus may have been aware, or it may have been common knowledge of the Creation of man by the upper and lower gods, the people of knowledge. If that was the case, then Deism may have been looked upon as god created earth for mankind. Which would be true. As meanings get changed over time you need to replace “created” with the word “domesticated” to get the meaning of the time. If you compare the OT genesis with the older genesis stories it is easy to see how the stories get changed and added to.

You have two major branches of religions. The Egyptian and the Jewish. Both were created by the “Word”. Or put another way, by knowledge. And the term god meant “knowledge” in religion. It only changed when the deities entered religion and became the controllers of knowledge.

What the scholars have found from the beginning of the written word is a lot of contracts. Like beer tabs, house rentals, farm rentals and such. The government laws had inheritance contracts along with adoption and birth contracts. The contracts seemed to be as or more complicated that our contracts that we use today. As in any contracts there can be disagreements and a need for a judge. This is where the deities came about. Some kings were judges first. The older Jewish religions use many women who were known to be fair as judges. The difference was if you went to the king, or the highest judge and you could prove the King’s judgement wrong. The king would have to pay you many times any costs you may have encountered. If you used a priest, the priest would talk to god and god would rule. That ruling was final. In the case of Jesus and the Jews. The scribes would interrupt the rules of laws as to what they meant. This meant the scribes were the lawyers and sort of an acting judge as well as the interpreters of the laws. You can see why Jesus wanted to change the system. Jerusalem is where the temple is. It was called Salem before Jerusalem. Salem means – knowledge. I don’t know if knowledge was related to “truth” in the people’s thinking.

CC - Deism can also be defined …

Deism meaning may have been different for Jesus than for Jefferson. We know the meaning after 300 AD.

For Jefferson it was - OK, god may have created everything. As there is no better answer as to who or how it was created. But, after god created everything, god left and will never return, ever. Bye, bye.

For Jesus it was the Hellenistic Judaism of the Sadducees, meaning that we are all part of god and god is knowledge. The Sadducees controlled the government and the Pharisees controlled the temple and the scribes. The Hellenistic period lasted from 323 B.C. until around 31 B.C. Alexander the Great built an empire that stretched from Greece all the way to India that used Hellenistic ideas with the existing religions to help govern the empire.

The common factor is – God the deity is gone and will not return. There is no judgement day. Or heaven or hell. No afterlife.

Afterlife is something that is hard to take away and it seems like Jesus was going to work with all the different religions but really needed to fix the system of judgement to a system that all tribes, areas and townships got represented. Deism was concentrated with the ruling sect of Hellenistic Jews known as the Sadducees who were the rich and landowners. They mostly wanted the rules of laws followed and didn’t care about who worshiped what god.

Welcome back, Mike.

Hi Tim.

I’m not back yet. Still got a lot of miles to put on the Harley. Just could not pass up this Jesus stuff while checking in to see what you guys have been up to.

Hey Mike what’s your thoughts on the westbro Baptist church?

Hi Player,

I never heard of westbro before. Internet did not paint a good picture of westbro.

My thoughts are that Jesus was only a man. Jesus and Mary together were beyond the extraordinary in their ability to create remarkable changes in the civilization of mankind that is still taking place a couple of thousand years after their passing. The love between them must have been so powerful and strong that it made them righteous. What westbro is doing, really pisses me off.

If you get a chance, read The Lost Gospel by Simcha Jacobovici and Barrie Wilson. A real game changer and you will see what I mean.

Why do you think the paint is unflattering??

Westboro Baptist Church - Wikipedia

Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an American church known for its use of inflammatory hate speech, especially against LGBT+ people, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, atheists, Muslims, Jews, and U.S. soldiers and politicians.

… inflammatory hate speech is very unflattering.

What would I need to convince me of God?
The collapse of All false religions, which means All religions.......

The Book of Nature is my God. I think its Mathematical in Nature, at least it has been so far.

But Mike why should you of all people criticise for just being truthful and honest???

They are simply expressing what the bible says

Where in the bible does it say to hate? Morality is mostly human driven. So, let’s say they feel they are correct on their views of morality. If you thought it was immoral to be sick or hurt, would it be OK for you to go into a hospital and scream and down grade people for being sick and hurt? After all you are just expressing what you think the bible says. Would you feel that would be human wisdom at its best if you just say you are being truthful and honest?

It’s not that hard Player to use a simple set of rules. Number one. Are the people fed? Not a problem. Number two. Are the people happy? I think you just failed that test. So, what in the laws of civilization will make the people happy in your hypothetical situation? The Buddhas were good at teaching the people to be fat and happy. What would a Buddha say to the people of Westboro?

Write4U,

There are again two pathways of looking at religion. The deity vs. knowledge. You are unhappy with the deity pathway, I get that. Religion is your inheritance. It is knowledge that has been passed down for you to use to make your life better. What it looks to me like you have done is already picked the pathway of knowledge with the mathematical in nature. When you start looking at god as knowledge and not a superpower comic hero. Then you have picked the knowledge pathway. Jesus said that god is in all of us. We together make god. Do you feel that part of the knowledge of nature is in you?

Point being. You need religion. Religion is supposed to teach you how to use wisdom. Nature will not do that. The deity pathway you vote and think the way the church tells you. The knowledge pathway is to make your choices using wisdom. Wisdom is just what your ancestors have learned and passed down to you as a gift so you can prosper and have a better life.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6120373/Top-10-worst-Bible-passages.html

A list of the top 10 worst Biblical verse has been drawn up, which includes approval for sexism, genocide and slavery.

 

https://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm

The Dark Bible - Women’s Inferior Status


 

Guess it’s in how you define “hate” - like the Right to Lifers who love the unborn fetus while despising the soiled mother and her offspring with total disregard for her reality.

Guess it’s in how you choose to define the words. After all the Bible is that ultimate Rorschach Test - you can make the words say/mean whatever your EGO wants them to.

What do you know about “God” Mike? What the bible tells you so?

Verses on hate, with apologetics

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/if-you-dont-hate-your-father-you-cannot-be-my-disciple