That doesn’t make sense. If they don’t think about free will, then they aren’t reacting to it. What are you saying?
You think you did, but you don’t understand what proof is, so, you didn’t.
You’re the one who says it’s about the physics. You say that knowing that our sense of reality is constructed from chemical reactions, based on physics, is what makes you unhappy. If you think forgetting about it would make you happy, why do you keep seeking out articles about it?
I didn’t prove what you say I did. I agreed with you that some people are affected by reading things about scientific discoveries about neurology and how they perceive the world. That isn’t a case for or against how people can find joy in their life or what causes them to be depressed. It’s different for each individual.
I specifically stated I’m not saying “i’m the universe.” I don’t think Tolle is that great either. That was not my point. But you aren’t interested in my point, or probably any point other than your own.
I’m saying people don’t think too deeply about life. The recovery center I’m in proves that point. All their material is rooted in outdated views of agency and positivity. Under modern neuroscience and psychology or social theory it would all fall apart.
Because it keeps coming up because that’s what it means when science advances, there is no running from it. It finds you whether you’re looking or not. It’s also not possible to forget it, brains don’t work like that. Once a mind is stretched it can’t go back.
Again, once you see how constructed our lives are: biologically, socially, psychologically, it’s hard to see things the same way ever again. You cannot go back to being happy because the principles underpinning it don’t hold. Hell even sexual desire can be socially constructed, just check out the Social Script Theory for sexual desire.
To be happy requires not looking closely at your life and life in general, lest you see the wires at the root of the tricks.
Couple weeks ago. The stuff they cite is outdated when it comes to neuroscience and psychology. They even try asserting that stuff like the shadow exists.
I think you’re being unfair to psychology. Neuroscience has moved quickly in recent years but its impact on how we treat mental illness and also our legal system is not that clear. As I showed, it is being studied. You can’t expect your opinions and conclusions to be immediately adopted.
That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t speak up. I have to advocate for myself in my cancer treatment. But I don’t argue as if I know better than the doctors. I can seek a second opinion. I can choose treatments.
I mean it already calls into question our idea of the self, as this response from one I spoke to gave me:
Hi Ian,
You’re wrestling with some serious questions. My take on them is more of a experience-based philosophical stance than a neuroscience-informed position… I don’t think of self as a rhythm, but as a grand collection of expectations and beliefs held by the brain about the body’s actions and sensations. Each brain only knows the world through its body and senses, so our sense of the world is always filtered through our sense of self, but that doesn’t mean other people aren’t out there and as real as you. What you experience is a mash-up of sensory signals caused by the world and the ideas and ways of reacting to and interacting with experiences that characterize your self.
What “matters?” In a cosmic sense, nothing matters. But our shared world is a world largely shared by a bunch of similar humans, and a lot of things matter to a lot of us. In that shared world, plenty of things matter, and we matter to each other, so the things that matter to you matter to others…
Not sure I can be more helpful than that without a long conversation. Is this helpful at all?
You accurately assessed him. He’s a chiropractor, not very sciencey.
But,
Not a reason to write off an entire Center and everyone who works there. You don’t know who chose that video, how many of them approved of it, or how it fits into any larger plan, if at all.
Different things work differently for different people. If it doesn’t work for you, that doesn’t make it completely wrong.
You can listen to what they say and do, without giving in to it. You can learn what they do without agreeing with it. The more you know about what they do, the better you can speak to it, with them, or with others. If you only dismiss it and tell them they are wrong then you’ve ended the conversation.
It had a conflicting view about identity, like saying that you can literally alter reality with thought or imagining a future you can’t see.
it didn’t help that I was already struggling with identity and personal feelings after reading stuff like this;
It’s just someone said this about identity and I don’t know how to respond
“Identity is a social signifier. Its value lies in putting you in context of a group of people. On its own it doesn’t provide any worth or value to the person in question. If you lived a solitary life, you would experience a complete loss of identity, without losing any of yourself. The fact is: We are very simple creatures with simple needs, living in an excessively complex social framework. That’s why we spend a day amongst people and feel defined and challenged by various aspects of identity and when we are home alone, looking at the mirror, see the tired ape we truly are.”
But, to be blunt, the real issue for me is the constructed nature of our reality. From our own senses and experience, and adding on top of that language, culture and other things, I struggle to deal with whats real, because it all feels fake. Even though people tell me no I just cannot grasp how they can know what I know and still think otherwise, what am I missing?
Even AI tried demonstrating I’m wrong but…I just can’t understand. I don’t get it…how do I make everything stop feeling fake?
Sure. I agree the video was wrong. You don’t have to convince me of that.
Sure. There are many things that people will say to you, trying to help, but they will be wrong.
From the quote, this is a succinct description of the problem. It is not an easy situation, the I’ve we humans find ourselves in. It doesn’t have easy answers.
Yes I know. You’ve says that.
What I think you are missing is that the reality that is constructed in us is constructed from reality. We are limited in what we can perceive, but we are real. We aren’t aware of everything so we don’t know every detail of reality, but if there wasn’t reality, we couldn’t even ask the question.
Right but in the link I gave with my asking Ai I still don’t see how people aren’t bothered by that. The concept of romantic love being inherited bugs me. But more than that is how we all use frameworks and nothing is carved on the rock or reality. That no one has unmediated access to reality, and that blows by desire to live in reality as it is to pieces.
I thought so. It adds to my suspicion that you are not representing yourself truthfully.
Culture is part of evolution.
How can it make life harder? You don’t know what it is. You have no idea how much better or worse life would be if you could “touch reality.” I doubt you could even define what you mean.
I’m tempted to close this discussion at this point because the Claude discussion linked above, covers just about everything that has been said, and does a much better job than I have of exposing the logical fallacies, connecting the philosophical questions to the history of philosophy, and drawing the line on when biology offers proof of what’s real or not.
If you want an overview of what identity is, it’s worth a read. It’s also a masterclass in dealing with someone who is bothered by how the social construction of reality makes understanding what is real, difficult.
it’s the advantage of AI, it wants to stay engaged and doesn’t get mad when the person asking questions gets repetitive. Plus, it is collective, so it draws on multiple disciplines to hone in on the specific problem, instead of drawing on the limited knowledge a single human would have.
Finally, in a larger context, the questions raised in this thread relate to the changing world we live in, with its cultural frameworks and moral relativism. Humans didn’t evolve for rapid change or living so close to others. The feelings of fear are easily exploited to create racist divisions and convince people to leave their comfortable community and fight for something that won’t benefit them. Just sayin’