Then there's the God v Science question.

@pwan "Every semantic purport in your intent is wrong."
Well okay. Instead of worrying about that,

why not just tell us what you are thinking?

Simple and straightforward, the gotcha games get sooo old.

===========

In truth there is no Objective Reality – all is witnessed from an individual perspective.
True dat. I've been thinking about "Objective Reality" a bunch and like you say, it's personal perspective. Product of our minds and an inhabitant of our mindscapes.

No one knows what “Reality” is, at least so a lot of over educated coddled salesmen will lecture about for hours on end.

I find it interesting that “Physical Reality” is something you won’t find mentioned too often. I find that curious because simple physical reality, the atoms and stuff we are made out of, natural laws and Evolutionary processes that created us and will swallow us in the end as it moves on.

So Physical Reality is the ultimate “IT”, amazingly constant as we flash across the stage of Earth.

Then there’s all the thoughts that our amazing human minds and lives have afforded us. Religion started early and is closes to humanity’s need make senses of stuff. Then came science, simple clear rules for objectively, that is beyond personal biases and self-interest, observing, studying, and learning about Physical Reality.

 

It’s really simple as that. I know someone like this Donald Hoffman, will tell you with a straight face that we don’t know anything, that an important, critical something is still missing from our understanding before we’ll be capable of making sense out of Reality. Self-indulgent and contrived - still, he’s busy milking a career and making discussion, and he’s got the education and writing chops to make it work, so there it is.

Still, don’t tell me we don’t understand the human body, or mind, when doctors and mend and manipulate and exchange and keep alive. A godly power if there ever was. Saying we don’t understand the physical reality around us is false and foolish. Setting impossible expectations is easy. Who ever said we have a need or a right to know everything. What’s wrong with accepting that some of this stuff is beyond and it’s okay, there’s plenty of truly fascinating and more important stuff right under our noses that we should be focusing on.

 

Oh but how I digress.

 

{I have easy duty, Nana is with me this time, and he’s 15 months, and baby whisperer is last years news. He wants Nana and I better keep my distance. Then again he’s endlessly fascinated at what I’m doing and keeps a close eye on me. I get smiles and even a kiss now’n then and we get into a bit of tag’n it, but he’s all about being with Nana. That’s cool, I tend to be passive, kids need to want to hang with me, works out really well (actually, didn’t do so bad with the woman either).

To each season, it’s weather :wink: <3 }

Setting impossible expectations is easy.
An insight I hadn't considered before. People who say that we don't understand reality seem to be mistaking "not knowing everything" for "not knowing anything".

?

I used to be the king of establishing rapport with toddlers under 3 yoa. I could help you have the little one crawling all over you for your attention, in no time.

But I think you are each traveling the path that is best, already, so no need for such a change.

@timb I used to be the king of establishing rapport with toddlers under 3 yoa.
I bet you still are, given the chance. But, I bet you also know sometimes stepping back is a good strategy. We wound up having plenty of quality one on one time before our 11 days was over, just had to give him a couple days to make the decision himself. Besides, I remember my Oma, and really now, what self respecting toddler wouldn't rather cuddle with a Nana, than a lean boney ol Napa.

 

I don’t see the conflict. -- bt
If people of faith kept it to themselves, there wouldn't be. If they didn't try to teach creationism as a theory, there wouldn't be. If they didn't lead prayer in a secular educational environment, there wouldn't be. If they didn't use faith-based reasoning to keep people from making medical decisions, there wouldn't be.
God is based on Faith. I don’t see the conflict.
If what you say is true , explain to me why history is filled with the most bloody wars and genocide. Faith in God instead of Science has been the cause of many horrific acts against scientists. Ask Hypatia of Alexandria, the first woman astronomer, who was brutally murdered by religious zealots.

http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia2.htm

@bt3241 - the problem with your thinking is that God did not create us, take a look at this planet you live upon. Then take some time from the Bible and instead learn about Evolution, that’s we’re you’ll learn about the who, what and where of our creation.

Spoiler, we are the product of Earth’s evolution, no imaginary figment needed!

There are 2 levels of reasoning:

-faith in god per se

-faith in god seen by men

About faith in god per se, the conflict comes from opposition between materialism and faith when one thinks that reality cannot be explained without the existence of a god.

About faith in god seen by men, the matter is that men create theirs gods according their needs. They need protectors and watchers able to punish them. And their views necessarily contradict science at some level.

I would say that after science, the next victim is personal freedom

 

 

There are 2 levels of reasoning:

-faith in god per se

-faith in god seen by men

About faith in god per se, the conflict comes from opposition between materialism and faith when one thinks that reality cannot be explained without the existence of a god.

About faith in god seen by men, the matter is that men create theirs gods according their needs. They need protectors and watchers able to punish them. And their views necessarily contradict science at some level.


 

That’s all fine and good, but I find such statements curiously empty because of their omission of Earth and the fact of us humans and our minds being a product of Earth.

I won’t really know until I die
Yeah, that's a nice thing they tell us. Heard it and believed it for a long time, but not so much anymore. But, you know, since making peace with my impending end, the deep dark eternal sleep, it seems to me I'd better figure things out, now while I'm here. Since once I die, it won't matter one hoot. Not that it really does now, still curiosity is only human, we want to understanding things, it just how we are.

Regarding death and the end of our self and mind, the beautiful of being human, is that we are part of a community, they remember.

We leave parts of ourselves behind, it’s the memories in the hearts of other, that keep us alive after we die. At least until all that also fades away, buried under the dusts of time.

Now, nearing 66, I’ve found most the big questions are answerable, if approached from a down to Earth perspective.

 

Earth Centrism ~ Geocentrism. Seriously ?

APRIL 5, 2021
What is “Earth Centrism”?

APRIL 16, 2021
Being an Element in Earth’s Pageant of Evolution

(https: //confrontingsciencecontrarians_blogspot_com)

I classify religion as a product of our mindscape, profoundly removed from the physical reality that created us.

 

Why would you study Mormonism’s Joseph Smith to learn about religion?

Joseph Smith was a convicted con artist.

He created his religion for personal monetary advancement.

I don’t see how he or his con-job offers anything beyond exposing the utterly self-serving nature of many religions. Nothing more.

You sure won’t find discovers about your relation with this Earth that created us, through mormonism. What you will find is an excellent example of a corporation that’s figured out how to create an insular society.

 

Perhaps we’re saying about the say thing.

 

Perhaps the only difference between us is that your still looking at it from within a religious framework, when for me that religious framework burned down long ago, and what grew in it’s place was an appreciation that Earth is the center of everything important we can ever want to know.

This does not exclude the greater universe beyond, since after all, Earth is a child of the solar system, which is a child of our galaxy, which is a child of the cosmos. Something that should never to be forgotten or overlooked. But everything relative to our lives is centered around our relationship with Earth (both physically and spiritually).

Religion is our mind’s TV show - not our creator or “LORD”.

I believe that we should stop making it the center of our perspectives, and from reading your words, I get the feeling that religion remains central to your thinking, even if it’s been covered with the veneer of philosophy and genuine skepticism. I’m not trying to be insulting, this is observational, and I’m always open and happy to incorporate valid to new information into my outlook. Trying to make some conversation. ??‍♂️

 

 

 

Guess, “maintain” would have been a better word. After all, they didn’t start out as a powerful corporation.

I remember that years ago, on his forum, M. Moorcock told about Ron Hubbard saying that the most efficient way to become rich was to found a religion.

@bt3241, hot damn, you’re fun. Heck if the weed’s good enough to help shamans to get a little deeper into their minds out into the cosmic realm, why not.

To me there seems to be something going on – if you sit still and realize the information being processed by your body its overwhelming and the person themself has no control over it most people have never noticed or are aware of it –
True dat! To me there seems to be something going on. In fact, I dare say I've had an ongoing argument with "god" and humanity since fairly early on. I've been into evolution my whole life, first 'casually' but it adds up, amazing answers that spawn better questions always striving for a little better grasp of the ongoing creation I find myself within. I know that the closer we look the more incomprehensible it seems, in fact, the more I learn the more it makes my head spin. I can easily understand the temptation of a "god" some "force" behind it all.

The thing is that I recognize those feels are a product of my own mind, trying to deal with the incomprehensible. It is not some signal coming in from an outside “god” hinting at some ultimate reality. It’s my mind doing the best it can with what it has.

Then I’m free to focus on down to Earth Physical Reality, the material world of atoms, molecules, time, folds within folds of cumulative harmonic complexity flowing down the cascade of time. ;-). Put that in your pipe and smoke, bet it goes down nice 'n smooth.

I could call it a biological operating system every second enormous amount of information is being processed – what happens to all that information does it just disappear or is it collected some how
Yup, the here and now. For me, often that's all there is, take care of that and future takes care of itself, and the past is a nice place to recollect. At least for me it's worked our fairly well. Why should the moment be collected like the never looked at pictures adding up on our iphones? I think about that stuff and I see pebbles being tossed into a pond.
The body would determine who you would be and how you would see the world every body has its own filters giving a different view of the world which are unique to each body. You could experience many different life times of all types being poor , rich ,crippled it all an experience. How would you know – the goal and purpose would be experience in reality
I like what you wrote there. I've thought about it quite a bit myself.

Everything you know is filtered through you and your body, love it or hate it, it’s all you have. You could almost say your mind is simply the other side of the coin, that is your body. There is no mind/body divide. (check out: The Source of Consciousness - with Mark Solms • Mar 4, 2021 • The Royal Institution)
Indeed, with a little good fortunate and playing your cards right, along with a curious adventurous spirit, you can walk in an amazing amount of shoes. Especially, if you’re fit, and get along, just a change of clothing makes worlds of difference. Clean up, or dress down, people mainly look at facades, it’s truly amazing. Now you got me reminiscing.

 

I bet you could start a religion,

if you really wanted to.

I’ve come to think I could write up a religion myself. I paid my dues and learned a thing or two, just haven’t gotten the kick in the butt I need to start in on it. I would never want to start a religion, but creating a foundational story, that would be fun.

 

 

@morgankane01

I remember that years ago, on his forum, M. Moorcock told about Ron Hubbard saying that the most efficient way to become rich was to found a religion.


I couldn’t resist taking a peek:

1. Kenneth Copeland… Net Worth $760 Million
  1. Bishop TD Jakes… Net Worth $150 Million

  2. David Oyedepo… Net Worth $150 Million

  3. Pat Robertson… Net Worth $100 Million

  4. Benny Hinn… Net Worth $42 Million

  5. Jesse Duplantis… Net Worth $50 Million

  6. Joel Osteen… Net Worth $40 Million

  7. Creflo Dollar… Net Worth $27 Million

  8. Rick Warren… Net Worth $25 Million

  9. Joyce Meyer… Net Worth $25 Million

  10. Pastor Jamal Bryant… Net Worth $20 Million

  11. Rev John Hagee… Net Worth $5 Million

  12. Paula White… Net Worth $5 Million

  13. Bishop Noel Jones… Net Worth $5 Million

  14. Louis Farrakhan… Net Worth $3 Million

Jesus must be rolling in his grave.

I bet you could start a religion, --cc
I'm in.

I might be your first apostate though. Not really good at following.

@bt3241 My only problem with what I came up with what would you call that other part of you that moves from body to body its not in this reality until it connects to a body – it has no identity its a collection of experience and information from life times lived and not accessible
Not following what you're describing.

“the other part of you that moves from body to body.”

Seems to me we are stuck with one body, it does change over time, but it’s still the same entity we inhabited at our beginning.

Sorry, guess I was mistaken.

Talking about reincarnation, for me, is about as logical as getting into a long winded discussion of how Mycroft and Sherlock got along with their mother and speculating why their dad so such an sob.

Get my drift.

Does not compute.

To imagine your mind can be transferred from inside one being, into inside another being, over time, … pure silliness, born of a terror of dying and becoming nothing. I’m not in terror of my end. It’s the way of the world and I’m at peace with it.