Then there's the God v Science question.

@bt3241, hot damn, you’re fun. Heck if the weed’s good enough to help shamans to get a little deeper into their minds out into the cosmic realm, why not.

To me there seems to be something going on – if you sit still and realize the information being processed by your body its overwhelming and the person themself has no control over it most people have never noticed or are aware of it –
True dat! To me there seems to be something going on. In fact, I dare say I've had an ongoing argument with "god" and humanity since fairly early on. I've been into evolution my whole life, first 'casually' but it adds up, amazing answers that spawn better questions always striving for a little better grasp of the ongoing creation I find myself within. I know that the closer we look the more incomprehensible it seems, in fact, the more I learn the more it makes my head spin. I can easily understand the temptation of a "god" some "force" behind it all.

The thing is that I recognize those feels are a product of my own mind, trying to deal with the incomprehensible. It is not some signal coming in from an outside “god” hinting at some ultimate reality. It’s my mind doing the best it can with what it has.

Then I’m free to focus on down to Earth Physical Reality, the material world of atoms, molecules, time, folds within folds of cumulative harmonic complexity flowing down the cascade of time. ;-). Put that in your pipe and smoke, bet it goes down nice 'n smooth.

I could call it a biological operating system every second enormous amount of information is being processed – what happens to all that information does it just disappear or is it collected some how
Yup, the here and now. For me, often that's all there is, take care of that and future takes care of itself, and the past is a nice place to recollect. At least for me it's worked our fairly well. Why should the moment be collected like the never looked at pictures adding up on our iphones? I think about that stuff and I see pebbles being tossed into a pond.
The body would determine who you would be and how you would see the world every body has its own filters giving a different view of the world which are unique to each body. You could experience many different life times of all types being poor , rich ,crippled it all an experience. How would you know – the goal and purpose would be experience in reality
I like what you wrote there. I've thought about it quite a bit myself.

Everything you know is filtered through you and your body, love it or hate it, it’s all you have. You could almost say your mind is simply the other side of the coin, that is your body. There is no mind/body divide. (check out: The Source of Consciousness - with Mark Solms • Mar 4, 2021 • The Royal Institution)
Indeed, with a little good fortunate and playing your cards right, along with a curious adventurous spirit, you can walk in an amazing amount of shoes. Especially, if you’re fit, and get along, just a change of clothing makes worlds of difference. Clean up, or dress down, people mainly look at facades, it’s truly amazing. Now you got me reminiscing.


I bet you could start a religion,

if you really wanted to.

I’ve come to think I could write up a religion myself. I paid my dues and learned a thing or two, just haven’t gotten the kick in the butt I need to start in on it. I would never want to start a religion, but creating a foundational story, that would be fun.




I remember that years ago, on his forum, M. Moorcock told about Ron Hubbard saying that the most efficient way to become rich was to found a religion.

I couldn’t resist taking a peek:

1. Kenneth Copeland… Net Worth $760 Million
  1. Bishop TD Jakes… Net Worth $150 Million

  2. David Oyedepo… Net Worth $150 Million

  3. Pat Robertson… Net Worth $100 Million

  4. Benny Hinn… Net Worth $42 Million

  5. Jesse Duplantis… Net Worth $50 Million

  6. Joel Osteen… Net Worth $40 Million

  7. Creflo Dollar… Net Worth $27 Million

  8. Rick Warren… Net Worth $25 Million

  9. Joyce Meyer… Net Worth $25 Million

  10. Pastor Jamal Bryant… Net Worth $20 Million

  11. Rev John Hagee… Net Worth $5 Million

  12. Paula White… Net Worth $5 Million

  13. Bishop Noel Jones… Net Worth $5 Million

  14. Louis Farrakhan… Net Worth $3 Million

Jesus must be rolling in his grave.

I bet you could start a religion, --cc
I'm in.

I might be your first apostate though. Not really good at following.

@bt3241 My only problem with what I came up with what would you call that other part of you that moves from body to body its not in this reality until it connects to a body – it has no identity its a collection of experience and information from life times lived and not accessible
Not following what you're describing.

“the other part of you that moves from body to body.”

Seems to me we are stuck with one body, it does change over time, but it’s still the same entity we inhabited at our beginning.

Sorry, guess I was mistaken.

Talking about reincarnation, for me, is about as logical as getting into a long winded discussion of how Mycroft and Sherlock got along with their mother and speculating why their dad so such an sob.

Get my drift.

Does not compute.

To imagine your mind can be transferred from inside one being, into inside another being, over time, … pure silliness, born of a terror of dying and becoming nothing. I’m not in terror of my end. It’s the way of the world and I’m at peace with it.

Swimming anadromously for two years:

I’m fully aware that there is no rational necessity, place for theism. I don’t have the ‘thing’ that did something before there was anything; there has always been something. I haven’t encountered a theist yet who can deal with eternity. And many postmodern non-science atheists can’t either. Nature, being is eternal, driven by the instability of absolute nothingness, non-being. If null then !null. Like dark energy, the density of meaningless order as an opposite of entropy, or should I say the density of negative entropy, negentropy, is constant for infinity and from eternity and beyond.

Which doesn’t invalidate an intentional ground of being of natural unstable absolute nothingness per se, but Occam does: God explains nothing but the posit that the instability necessitates intention, at the cost of infinitely more complexity. And no on the other hand, I don’t fall in to the trap of invoking an infinite multiverse to explain fine tuning. I don’t accept the latter at all. Nature self tunes until proven otherwise.

But I desire transcendence of nature, despite it being utterly unimaginable, because of the incarnational claim of Jesus, despite that being easily naturally explicable even with good will; that he was as historic as it’s naturally possible to be and believed everything He said as did his followers.

So I just need to grow up that little bit more?

What is this, “the density of meaningless order as an opposite of entropy”?

And what do you mean by “deal with eternity”? Why is that important? What would dealing with it look like? Since you say “many” can’t, then there must be some who can, or have?

I had the same questions pop up in my mind reading that.

This one also confuses me.
The only thing I see driving nature is the fundamental reality of time marching ever forward.

Evolution = change over time

The density, level of negative entropy (order as opposed to disorder?) must be constant? No matter… how many spacetime bubbles arise, negentropy is inexhaustible.

Eternity (of nature) is the factiest fact there is. Nothing changes. I have never encountered a theist who can deal with that. They all seem to have to have, need a beginning to their story. There are no end, is no beginning, of beginnings.

I guess. If you’re lost in space somewhere. But we are creatures of this planet Earth. There was a beginning and there are many chapters with beginnings and endings, while the over arching nature of Earth continues through all its changes.

Excuse me, but again, this is what I’d define as an example of being lost within one’s mindscape and losing sight of the Physical Reality from which nature flows.
There is a very clear divide between mind/thoughts/consciousness and the brain/body/environment reality all living creatures are stuck with.

“Human Mindscape ~ Physical Reality divide”

Step one to appreciating our human condition.

Okay, not sure what your ellipses mean, and not sure that entropy applies outside of the spacetime we are in, but let’s proceed with that premise. I thought you were, or are advancing some sort of science/faith magesterium, something about the two co-existing, but you say you have never met a theist who can handle eternity. That was a deal breaker for me. I didn’t “handle” eternity, but I came to peace with not knowing how to experience, and being not so good at conceptualizing it.

How’s that going for you?

I gained that (in)sight with eternity.

Later: it has a hard pitiless glare that all Christians apart from the existential avoid.

The same! It’s just a matter of accepting it as a bottom line. The ellipses are for the plays on words, sorry. So entropy only applies in spacetime? Is dark energy (expanding spacetime) negentropy also in spacetime?

4 d later: energy extends spacetime so dark energy must along with it, but oscillatingly acceleratingly so.

I’ve never heard any descriptions of energy of any kind in the quantum background. That thing that Krauss calls “nothing”.

Hmmmmm. The quantum background being the quanta that come in to being from the deepest kind of absolutely nothing? How many of these to a big bang? One? Where quantum gravity swamps, pre-empts general relativity making singularity impossible? I suppose I’ve been subconsciously, unexaminedly thinking of background quanta as openings, channels for negentropy. Erroneously, unnecessarily. But how do we get from minimal quanta of existence to pre-inflation, Planck epoch big bangs? Unless the minimal quanta actually define the big bangs? I dunno. Especially if the net energy has always been zero… nothing became more complex… nothing; everything cancels out.

Neither do I. Nobody does. Do they?

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Aye, our passions enslave our reason one way and the other.

moved to science sub-forum

Maybe Bohm does. He appears to be talking there in @write4u’s quote about infinite, eternal negentropy; the energy of the primal quantum background as we discussed: