I don't really want to read the book. Perhaps you could cite one of the research studies from the book, that would help illustrate your point, that I could look up.http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2184440 http://www.moralfoundations.orgThanks, I'll look at these later.
Well, I agree with you because I'm a liberal, but conservatives see themselves as being on the right side, too. It's all subjective, isn't it? ...Yeah, mostly subjective, probably, but I imagine that there are objectively worse ideas and actions in one camp v. the other, especially when one group becomes more extreme and hardened against reality.
Well, I agree with you because I'm a liberal, but conservatives see themselves as being on the right side, too. It's all subjective, isn't it? ...Yeah, mostly subjective, probably, but I imagine that there are objectively worse ideas and actions in one camp v. the other, especially when one group becomes more extreme and hardened against reality. Who makes that determination?
While I can agree with a lot of what this guy is saying, it seems clear to me that he has his own biases. While presenting himself as an expert on diagnosing the world on the basis of the Diagnostic Statistical Manual. Re: his statement "Liberals think of them selves as intellectually and ethically superior to conservatives." Uh, yeah, but this is not a pathology, it is simply the truth.Everybody thinks his own position is intellectually and ethically superior to the opposition. Who in the world would say his own position is intellectuallly and ethically inferior to others? Lois When you put it that way, no one, however, I consider it a traditional liberal value to be open to your position being wrong in some way. At any given moment no one, except psychopaths, thinks they are wrong, but the liberal position is to be just that, liberal, with your views. A liberal is aware that they might be wrong in the future. They will say they hold a position, but it is contingent on current data. If you present new data to them, rather than attempt to twist their current view to incorporate it while still maintaining that view, they will either honestly incorporate it or say they need time to research the new information. This is not the political definition of liberal, a fiscally conservative, pro-life church attender could adopt this attitude.
Well, I agree with you because I'm a liberal, but conservatives see themselves as being on the right side, too. It's all subjective, isn't it? ...Yeah, mostly subjective, probably, but I imagine that there are objectively worse ideas and actions in one camp v. the other, especially when one group becomes more extreme and hardened against reality. Who makes that determination? Well, in practice, today, mostly late night progressive political comedy shows.
Well, I agree with you because I'm a liberal, but conservatives see themselves as being on the right side, too. It's all subjective, isn't it? ...Yeah, mostly subjective, probably, but I imagine that there are objectively worse ideas and actions in one camp v. the other, especially when one group becomes more extreme and hardened against reality. Who makes that determination? Well, in practice, today, mostly late night progressive political comedy shows. Yes. And regressive comedy shows like those on Fox News.
Well, I agree with you because I'm a liberal, but conservatives see themselves as being on the right side, too. It's all subjective, isn't it? ...Yeah, mostly subjective, probably, but I imagine that there are objectively worse ideas and actions in one camp v. the other, especially when one group becomes more extreme and hardened against reality. Who makes that determination? From the list:
5. Liberal values discourage people from acting in their own self interestIMO, this is just plain false. Everyone acts always what they consider is in their own best interest.The discouragement (restrictive, prejudicial, inequality) are promoted by Scripture. Under secular (liberal) law, everyone has equal status and rights. Any religious law (scripture) which promotes violence is historically proven to be a dangerous tool to extract conformity and discourages the exercise of liberal (self-interest) values.
While I can agree with a lot of what this guy is saying, it seems clear to me that he has his own biases. While presenting himself as an expert on diagnosing the world on the basis of the Diagnostic Statistical Manual. Look at the following that he says re: Liberals' Pathology: 1. Guilt and self-loathing are woven into liberal philosophy and policy 2. Dependant personality types are drawn to liberalism 3. Marginalized groups and dysfunctional individuals are drawn to liberalism 4. Histrionic personality types are drawn to liberalism 5. Liberal values discourage people from acting in their own self interest 6. Liberals think of them selves as intellectually and ethically superior to conservatives. When he goes on to talk about Conservative Pathology, he, essentially, just concludes that Conservatives tend to err on the side of strength, and that liberals tend to err on the side of weakness. Personally, I identify as a Liberal. This was not always the case. Until, "Shock and Awe", when I first began to realize that the neo-cons were such idiots, if not criminal in their policies, and actions, I self identified as an Independent with a liberal bent on some issues. (BTW, that realization has been confirmed, more and more, ever since). My full fledged identification with progressive liberal thinking emerged and is reinforced as a counter-valence to the extremism of the conservative positions. e.g., I don't see how the inadequate invasion of Iraq and the subsequent and persistent mismanagement of that war, which wasted 100's of billions (trillions?) of dollars and destroyed or disabled so many lives, could be associated with "strength". Re: this author's 1st example of liberal pathology, where he says: "Guilt and self-loathing are woven into liberal philosophy and policy" I can't think of any liberal/progressive thinking person, that I know who loathes themselves. I don't view them as feeling guilt, either. Rather, I would say they are more in tune with what is just. Also, I don't view the abdication of some self-interest, to group interest, as a weakness, because self-interest is, more often than not, enhanced by the promotion of group interest. But this author seems to think that this is a pathological stance. Re: his statement "Liberals think of them selves as intellectually and ethically superior to conservatives." Uh, yeah, but this is not a pathology, it is simply the truth.Everybody thinks his own position is intellectually and ethically superior to the opposition. Who in the world would say his own position is intellectuallly and efhically inferior to others? LoisExcept that conservatives are wrong in thinking themselves superior. Their views tend to be simplistic/black-and-white, whereas liberals views tend to be complex/grey. Conservatives views tend to be contradictory, for ex government is bad and must be minimized, except for gay marriage, abortion, etc. And moreover there have been studies done that prove conservatives tend to be low information/intellectually inferior. Now they can still be good people, and there can certainly be morally bad liberals, but in terms of intelligence, conservatives are inferior. Let's be honest, just look at the Republican clown show debates vs Dem/Independent actual debates. Well, I agree with you because I'm a liberal, but conservatives see themselves as being on the right side, too. It's all subjective, isn't it? They think liberals see things as simplistic black and white and their own as complex. There is no absolute "right" way of thinking. Who would establsh that ideal?Actually no, they don't think liberals are black and white and themselves complex. Or if they do they're lying. They go to great lengths to say that things are NOT complex, that they ARE black and white. They're proud of that in fact. Just look at the abortion issue. Exceptions for rape? Nope. Exceptions for incest? Nope. Black and white, no room for complexity, etc.
The most viciously bad behaving "Muslims" of all, are Boko Haram. What ethnicity are they? I doubt that it is ethnicity, but rather that really bad versions of Islam tend to emerge in tribalistic societies. Cultures that are chaotic (and/or) which are governed corruptly are ripe for bad versions of Islam to take over. This version of Islam is imperialistic. It is severely doctrinally dictatorial and dominating, but it provides order. As part of its goal to spread, it sometimes promotes chaos in other societies and thus prepare the soil to take over. That probably happens more easily in tribal societies.Possibly, however most tribalistic societies are not that violent. There has to be some reason why "bad versions of Islam" are able to form and easily flourish in some groups, but not others - and the reason can't be anything other than genes. Oh contrare, tribalistic societies can be very violent. And certain interpretations of Islam can provide the basis for a very well organized violent, imperialistic culture. interpretations? How would anyone interpret these passages from the Qur'an? They don't mean what they say--the word of Allah, the commands of Allah? Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you." Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things." Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…" Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer. " Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement" Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" [In the intersts of space, I have cut many more, some worse.] From the Hadith. Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror' Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist) There is much more, with commentary, here http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
While I can agree with a lot of what this guy is saying, it seems clear to me that he has his own biases. While presenting himself as an expert on diagnosing the world on the basis of the Diagnostic Statistical Manual. Look at the following that he says re: Liberals' Pathology: 1. Guilt and self-loathing are woven into liberal philosophy and policy 2. Dependant personality types are drawn to liberalism 3. Marginalized groups and dysfunctional individuals are drawn to liberalism 4. Histrionic personality types are drawn to liberalism 5. Liberal values discourage people from acting in their own self interest 6. Liberals think of them selves as intellectually and ethically superior to conservatives. When he goes on to talk about Conservative Pathology, he, essentially, just concludes that Conservatives tend to err on the side of strength, and that liberals tend to err on the side of weakness. Personally, I identify as a Liberal. This was not always the case. Until, "Shock and Awe", when I first began to realize that the neo-cons were such idiots, if not criminal in their policies, and actions, I self identified as an Independent with a liberal bent on some issues. (BTW, that realization has been confirmed, more and more, ever since). My full fledged identification with progressive liberal thinking emerged and is reinforced as a counter-valence to the extremism of the conservative positions. e.g., I don't see how the inadequate invasion of Iraq and the subsequent and persistent mismanagement of that war, which wasted 100's of billions (trillions?) of dollars and destroyed or disabled so many lives, could be associated with "strength". Re: this author's 1st example of liberal pathology, where he says: "Guilt and self-loathing are woven into liberal philosophy and policy" I can't think of any liberal/progressive thinking person, that I know who loathes themselves. I don't view them as feeling guilt, either. Rather, I would say they are more in tune with what is just. Also, I don't view the abdication of some self-interest, to group interest, as a weakness, because self-interest is, more often than not, enhanced by the promotion of group interest. But this author seems to think that this is a pathological stance. Re: his statement "Liberals think of them selves as intellectually and ethically superior to conservatives." Uh, yeah, but this is not a pathology, it is simply the truth.Everybody thinks his own position is intellectually and ethically superior to the opposition. Who in the world would say his own position is intellectuallly and efhically inferior to others? LoisExcept that conservatives are wrong in thinking themselves superior. Their views tend to be simplistic/black-and-white, whereas liberals views tend to be complex/grey. Conservatives views tend to be contradictory, for ex government is bad and must be minimized, except for gay marriage, abortion, etc. And moreover there have been studies done that prove conservatives tend to be low information/intellectually inferior. Now they can still be good people, and there can certainly be morally bad liberals, but in terms of intelligence, conservatives are inferior. Let's be honest, just look at the Republican clown show debates vs Dem/Independent actual debates. Well, I agree with you because I'm a liberal, but conservatives see themselves as being on the right side, too. It's all subjective, isn't it? They think liberals see things as simplistic black and white and their own as complex. There is no absolute "right" way of thinking. Who would establsh that ideal?Actually no, they don't think liberals are black and white and themselves complex. Or if they do they're lying. They go to great lengths to say that things are NOT complex, that they ARE black and white. They're proud of that in fact. Just look at the abortion issue. Exceptions for rape? Nope. Exceptions for incest? Nope. Black and white, no room for complexity, etc. I was in no way supporting the right wing view. I only meant that they see us that way. They think liberals are the hardheaded ones who won't see reason. Of course I think they're wrong on most issues. I can't think of an intelligent "conservative" right now. i've heard there used to be some. No more. The current crop of right wing idiots have apparently drowned them all out. Lois
I wouldn't say Muslims are pathological, it's more that they simply don't fit into western society. However, the ultimate point he's missing is that ethnicity is the cause of their so-called pathological behavior--not Islam itself.How were you able to separate ethnic influences from religious ones? LoisThe problematic behavior of Muslims only occurs with certain groups - namely Arabs, Berbers, Pashtuns and maybe Chechens to a lesser extent. Its not seen with other Muslim majority groups. Like which ones? Central Asians Iranians Indonesians Albanians Azeris Bosniaks Turkish
The most viciously bad behaving "Muslims" of all, are Boko Haram. What ethnicity are they? I doubt that it is ethnicity, but rather that really bad versions of Islam tend to emerge in tribalistic societies. Cultures that are chaotic (and/or) which are governed corruptly are ripe for bad versions of Islam to take over. This version of Islam is imperialistic. It is severely doctrinally dictatorial and dominating, but it provides order. As part of its goal to spread, it sometimes promotes chaos in other societies and thus prepare the soil to take over. That probably happens more easily in tribal societies.Possibly, however most tribalistic societies are not that violent. There has to be some reason why "bad versions of Islam" are able to form and easily flourish in some groups, but not others - and the reason can't be anything other than genes. Oh contrare, tribalistic societies can be very violent. And certain interpretations of Islam can provide the basis for a very well organized violent, imperialistic culture. interpretations? How would anyone interpret these passages from the Qur'an? They don't mean what they say--the word of Allah, the commands of Allah? Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you." Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things." Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…" Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks." Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer. " Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement" Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" [In the intersts of space, I have cut many more, some worse.] From the Hadith. Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror' Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist) There is much more, with commentary, here http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htmThis spergy view of religion is one of the many flaws of atheists.
Lois, most Muslims either ignore, or interpret those verses as being contextually specific, rather than a command to wage violent jihad upon the world. But they do point out how it is rather easy to use the doctrines of Islam to promote a Daesh view of the world.
Mid atlantic: “This spergy view of religion is one of the many flaws of atheists.”
View? It’s exactly what it says!
Your ignorant view of atheists is evidence of the many mental incapacities of theists. You prove my point.