Saw a great example of… what apathy or willful ignorance… not enough facts are in to decide
In any event, it seems that any time someone tries to defend our planet’s biosphere,
they come out of the woodwork with stuff like this:
"He is an environmentalist. He sees the sky fall where ever he looks."
Followed with self satisfied whoops loud enough to drown out any real world information that's trying to be heard.
So where is our planet healthy and thriving? Should be an easy one.
And no the bank accounts of the top 1% don't count.
oh great smug one…how was he defending the planet when he said ‘we are running out of water on Earth’
He was just waving his arms in panic…just as he has been taught.
Why don’t you give some specifics ?
Check it out in Science and tech…
Our planet is as healthy today as it has ever been in billions of years…
oh great smug one...how was he defending the planet when he said 'we are running out of water on Earth'
He was just waving his arms in panic...just as he has been taught.
Why don't you give some specifics ?
Check it out in Science and tech....
Our planet is as healthy today as it has ever been in billions of years....
That depends entirely on what you mean by healthy, This planet has been here for 4 billion years and will certainly be here for another 4 billion. As humans though the only thing that matters when we discuss a healthy planet is whether it continues to be a healthy environment for us to live int doesn't it? When the environment starts changing in ways that is detrimental to OUR health or our homes then its no longer a health planet in any way that matters.
You've been spending to much time watching Faux News and swallowing their "The earth has survived many calamities and it will survive us" mantra that has been designed for the sole purpose of keeping the government out of their lives while ignoring the science.
Sure, the Earth will survive us, no problem. It might be a polluted, lifeless, radioactive cinder, but it will still be a planet, orbiting the sun…
The neo-Conservative philosophy can be summed up in two or three sentences. Total deregulation for large corporations, but more and more rules and regulations for the common riffraff like you and me. Poor people have too much money, and rich people deserve more. “The environment” is just a buzzword for vindictive tax-and-spend-liberals [all one word, you’ll note] to annoy corporate CEOs with.
TFS
Oh well, if you are pushing politics then what you say could be voted on to determine the truth…science does not usually work that way…Mankind has never had it so good !
The planet is in such great shape that more humans can live longer healthier and happier lives then ever before…this is a true statement even if it does not fit the popular image that is presented in the media.
Oh well, if you are pushing politics then what you say could be voted on to determine the truth....science does not usually work that way.....Mankind has never had it so good !
The planet is in such great shape that more humans can live longer healthier and happier lives then ever before...this is a true statement even if it does not fit the popular image that is presented in the media.
???????... "The Republican battle-cry...." Seems to me that this thread is all about politics..... And I know how science works; I wonder if you do?
"The media" is a meaningless abstraction. "Media" range all the way from Fox and CNN to "USA Today" to "Adbusters". You won't find much of your so-called "popular image" on Fox.
Certainly many humans in North America and Western Europe are living longer and healthier lives; happier? - debatable. And how many have lost well-paid manufacturing and technical jobs that have been outsourced, and are flipping burgers part-time at Wendy's for $8 an hour? Then, of course, there's most of Africa, South America, much of South Asia, etc. Some people in those places (those who've been lucky enough to pick up the outsourced jobs) are living longer healthier lives; many aren't. And none of this has anything to do (yet) with climate change. It's called Globalization, which is a whole other bag of beans.
TFS
oh great smug one...how was he defending the planet when he said 'we are running out of water on Earth'
He was just waving his arms in panic...just as he has been taught.
Why don't you give some specifics ?
Check it out in Science and tech....
Our planet is as healthy today as it has ever been in billions of years....
What does that even mean, the Earth has been through major changes since it's formation.
Are you saying that it's as healthy now as when it was a ball of molten rock and nothing could live on it?
Are you saying it's as healthy as it was when it had a reducing atmosphere that could only support anaerobic simple life?
How about during the snowball phase when ice probably covered the planet to the equator and then fluctuated to a very hot phase as CO2 levels skyrocketed due to the lack of exposed rock and ocean to remove it from the atmosphere?
How about some of the Extinction Level Events that have come very close to wiping all complex life off the planet like the Permian extinction where up to 95% of species were eliminated. That was most likely due to changes in the atmosphere from intense volcanic activity in what is now Siberia that caused a spike in CO2 and sulfur dioxide in the atmosphere similar to conditions we're creating today. That happened over hundreds of thousands of years, what is likely to happen as we make significant changes like this in centuries or even decades.
There's no question that man is having a dramatic impact on the Earth that threatens clean water availability, species diversity, stable climate and global energy balances that can and probably will have catastrophic effects in the mid to long term.
Just because we're not all dropping dead at the moment doesn't mean that what we're doing is safe, just that the true results can take some time to appear due to inertia in the system.
Oh well, if you are pushing politics then what you say could be voted on to determine the truth....science does not usually work that way.....Mankind has never had it so good !
The planet is in such great shape that more humans can live longer healthier and happier lives then ever before...this is a true statement even if it does not fit the popular image that is presented in the media.
At the expense of the natural capital that has been built up over millions of years.
Changing the entire globe into one that's "normal" based on human economic standards will almost certainly result in ecosystem collapses that will also almost certainly take us all with them.
oh great smug one...how was he defending the planet when he said 'we are running out of water on Earth'
Defending… trying to raise Earth awareness, er appreciation is an aspect of defending our planet - especially considering how disconnected so many people seem.
I'm curious, what do you think of FuzzyLogic's nice little summation?
I am pleased with fuzzy logic’s fuzzy logic. He makes some nice points and screws up royally on others…human.
He lays out the argument for me…we humans have way less impact ( lasting ) on this planet than the popular opinion of this last decade.
EVERYTHING changes…constantly yet you want to blame humans…not all… just Republicans…for wrecking this lovely planet. Stop waving your arms… the planet is fine…and will be fine regardless of the way humans live their little lives.
You may not like my opinion but it has as much validity as the doomsday prophesy…which always seems to be around the next corner…watch your step !
Pull your head out and breath some fresh air…take a look at the sunshine. It is nice in one part of the world and it is not nice in another…it is cold for some hot for others…you will not pass laws to stop this.
SD, you’re opinion is totally disconnected from what has been happening on this planet.
Yes labels are so untidy- but Republican supported by “libertarians” and the deep pockets of a very few megalomaniacs are the drivers of the incredible dishonest attack on science and reality.
And it’s not all USA, but the infection started here and has been spreading across borders - look at the Harper gov’t in Canada - man those crazies seem to want to out do the Kochs. Dismantling of Fishery Library ‘Like a Book Burning,’ Say Scientists
Harper government shuts down ‘world class’ collection on freshwater science and protection.
By Andrew Nikiforuk, 9 Dec 2013, TheTyee.ca
What’s Driving Chaotic Dismantling of Canada’s Science Libraries?
Scientists reject Harper gov’t claims vital material is being saved digitally.
By Andrew Nikiforuk | 23 Dec 2013 | TheTyee.ca
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Don’t get me wrong, there’s plenty of blame to go around and Democrats aren’t sinless for sure, but there’s is more along the lines of the “sins of the lemmings” than the Republican’s strategic tactical attack on science and reality.
Here’s a bit of historic perspective that I image you’ll be able to ignore like you do what we have been doing our planet.
Merchants of Doubt: Naomi Oreskes on Climate Skepticism -
Ever spend any looking at Google Earth closely? Tell me we aren’t having a huge destructive impact after a bit of time doing that.
citizen- I spend a bit of time googling…can you see all the destruction that rain does ? Do you blame humans for rain ? Can you see the destruction caused by earthquakes ? do you believe humans cause earthquake ?..volcanoes ? You don/t follow my argument very well. I am stating that none of the problems caused by humans has a global effect. Global warming is not the simple thing made out in the MEDIA. Climate science is in it’s infancy and is off to a shaky start due to being spoiled by chicken little spending.
What a joke…the term climate skepticism…like I doubt climate. I don’t think that we can predict the behavior of a dynamic non-linear system. If you wish to believe that you can go ahead. In the past…as in a couple of hundred millions of years the climate has been changing…in a NON predictable way…yet all of the sudden we think that we can predict it…far too short term data…don’t give me crap about dendro-chornology because the experts in that field understand that the noise is larger or equal to the signal…time to take a breath and allow another couple of sun cycles to happen before wasting money on a problem we can’t correct.
Wow what a ranting fool I am.
Thank-you for putting up with my opinions…however far out there they may be…
Here’s what I don’t get about climate change deniers. Even if the climate isn’t changing the way scientists have proven, what’s wrong with trying to change our ways to have an even better climate anyway? That’s like telling your doctor, No I won’t eat better and exercise more. And if these deniers actually believed in the capitalism they espouse, they’d say to themselves, great the world wants a better climate, fine, I’ll make money off of THAT. But they don’t do this. That tells me they’re utter hypocrites. A true capitalist would welcome the opportunity to innovate and compete. No, these guys are Fascists intent on arranging things so they DON’T have to innovate and compete. They’re cowards.
Of course the earth will survive, but that’s not the point. It has survived a number of major extinctions. The problem is that our species has been so successful that we began changing the environment faster than it could change back about a hundred years ago, and that change is accelerating rapidly. We’re setting ourselves up for another major extinction, and we may well be part of the species that disappear or at least become minor like the left over reptiles are now.
Occam
I am pleased with fuzzy logic's fuzzy logic. He makes some nice points and screws up royally on others...human.
He lays out the argument for me....we humans have way less impact ( lasting ) on this planet than the popular opinion of this last decade.
EVERYTHING changes....constantly yet you want to blame humans...not all.... just Republicans....for wrecking this lovely planet. Stop waving your arms...... the planet is fine....and will be fine regardless of the way humans live their little lives.
You may not like my opinion but it has as much validity as the doomsday prophesy....which always seems to be around the next corner.....watch your step !
Pull your head out and breath some fresh air...take a look at the sunshine. It is nice in one part of the world and it is not nice in another....it is cold for some hot for others.....you will not pass laws to stop this.
We human have had a huge impact on this Earth starting with the introduction of wet agriculture almost 10,000 years ago. One of the reasons this interglacial period has been so stable climate wise in relation to previous ones is probably due to the effect of methane introduced into the atmosphere from rice a taro cultivation in the east. It has buffered us from some of the fluxations seen in the climate records, but this has limits.
CO2 is the most important persistent greenhouse gas and is strongly absorptive in the 14 micron band, right in the main curve of the EM spectrum emitted by the Earth, it isn't absorptive in the shorter wavelengths that make up sunlight. The result is a growing radiative imbalance that has to result in the warming of the overall global system and past records show us what happens when the Earth goes through rapid warming events, the seas can turn anoxic and create the perfect conditions for sulfur loving bacteria which give off hydrogen sulfide, a poisonous gas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoxic_event
Oceanic anoxic events or anoxic events occur when the Earth's oceans become completely depleted of oxygen (O2) below the surface levels. The similar term euxinia refers to anoxic conditions in the presence of H
2S hydrogen sulfide. Although anoxic events have not happened for millions of years, the geological record shows that they happened many times in the past. Anoxic events may have caused mass extinctions.[1] These mass extinctions include some that geobiologists use as time markers in biostratigraphic dating. It is believed[2] oceanic anoxic events are strongly linked to lapses in key oceanic current circulations, to climate warming and greenhouse gases.
We're currently responsible for emitting over 10 billion tons of CO2 every year, something that isn't really all that "natural" in the sense that no other life form on the planet has had such a significant effect on the atmosphere in such a short period of time. Since the mid 1800s CO2 levels have gone from about 280 ppm to almost 400 ppm. In slightly more than 150 years we've had the same effect that it took natural systems thousands or even hundreds of thousands of year to create, are you seriously claiming that as humans we get some sort of ecological waiver that allows us to anything we like with no negative effects.
The world is going to be around, but if human activities continue on the same or worse pace then many species simply won't be part of the natural world and that most likely won't include us when you consider how frail human civilization really is and how dependent most people are on modern conditions to survive.
The Dow Jones doesn't monitor the actual physical health of the planet, something some people have a very difficult time accepting, things like the Dow and other indexes don't even reflect economic health as we've seen repeatedly over the last several decades. And yet the naysayers keep claiming we're on some path to materialistic glory if we just keep doing the same thing over and over again. Einstein had an interesting observation for people who do that and I think it applies equally well to entire societies that choose faith in unsupported beliefs over hard evidence.
citizen- I spend a bit of time googling......can you see all the destruction that rain does ? Do you blame humans for rain ? Can you see the destruction caused by earthquakes ? do you believe humans cause earthquake ?.....volcanoes ? You don/t follow my argument very well. I am stating that none of the problems caused by humans has a global effect. Global warming is not the simple thing made out in the MEDIA. Climate science is in it's infancy and is off to a shaky start due to being spoiled by chicken little spending.
The amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is affected by air temperature, by increasing the amount of the persisent gas carbon dioxide the way we have average air temperatures have increased and so has the average amount of water being carried in the air. The reason there has been so much more serious flash flooding in the world in recent years is the ability of air masses to deliver much more precipitation much more rapidly almost certainly due to the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere which is linked directly back to burning billions of tons of fossil fuels over the last 200 or so years. Right now over 6 billion tons of coal are consumed annually worldwide. The amazing thing would be if we could do such a reckless thing and have no effect.
What a joke....the term climate skepticism....like I doubt climate. I don't think that we can predict the behavior of a dynamic non-linear system. If you wish to believe that you can go ahead. In the past....as in a couple of hundred millions of years the climate has been changing...in a NON predictable way...yet all of the sudden we think that we can predict it......far too short term data.....don't give me crap about dendro-chornology because the experts in that field understand that the noise is larger or equal to the signal.....time to take a breath and allow another couple of sun cycles to happen before wasting money on a problem we can't correct.
Wow what a ranting fool I am.
Thank-you for putting up with my opinions....however far out there they may be.....
Climate is weather averaged over long periods of time, it may be impossible to predict weather more than a week or so ahead of time, but the longer timescale of climate study smooths out the variations which will tend towards a mean, so it is possible to predict with some confidence where a system will end up due to radiative forcings. For instance it's likely the polar ice sheets will begin to break down between 350-550 ppm of atmospheric CO2. And ocean-atmosphere coupled systems will begin to undergo phase shifts as the way heat is transferred within the system changes. Most of the additional heat being loaded into the global system by the positive forcing caused by human emitted greenhouse gases is going into the oceans where it will almost certainly change systems like ENSO, PDO and NAO that can have a significant effect on weather and eventually climate globally.
We don't need to wait until it's too late to do anything to predict serious consequences from forcing the global radiative balance into a hotter state, we just have to look at the physical evidence of what will happen if we continue to force the global environment into a new state at a pace much faster that it or we can adjust to. The work goes back almost 200 hundred years to Fourier, then Tyndall and then Svante Arrhenius who calculated with fairly good accuracy what would occur if the atmospheric CO2 was doubled, and that was in the late 1800s. Climate science is a very mature science, which is why contrarians have to go to such extremes to counter it, including what amounts to book burning here in Canada.
Of course the earth will survive, but that's not the point. It has survived a number of major extinctions. The problem is that our species has been so successful that we began changing the environment faster than it could change back about a hundred years ago, and that change is accelerating rapidly. We're setting ourselves up for another major extinction, and we may well be part of the species that disappear or at least become minor like the left over reptiles are now.
Occam
Here are two sobering viewpoints, one is delivered as comedy with some factual liberties
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c (warning crude language)
and this more detailed and factual analysis of the reasons why at least the majority of the human race is in peril of extinction.
