I said music isn't a universal language. Nothing is. If it were then it would not require instruction to interpret it. You can respond because you understand English but not everyone does. Even if the whole world did that would not make it a universal language.I don't think you understand the word universal. I do and I know it's correct in this case. Either way his point is moot because there is no self and no "other" to have empathy for. Then define "universal". And explain how you used it correctly.
I said music isn't a universal language. Nothing is. If it were then it would not require instruction to interpret it. You can respond because you understand English but not everyone does. Even if the whole world did that would not make it a universal language.I don't think you understand the word universal. I do and I know it's correct in this case. Either way his point is moot because there is no self and no "other" to have empathy for. Then define "universal". And explain how you used it correctly. Universal means understood and affecting everyone. In the case I used it is correct, music is not a universal language (further supported by the arbitrary definition of music and how noise and music are hard to define).
I said music isn't a universal language. Nothing is. If it were then it would not require instruction to interpret it.Tell that to the baby being soothed by mom's lullaby. And the baby that is agitated by the same music? Your example fails.
I said music isn't a universal language. Nothing is. If it were then it would not require instruction to interpret it. You can respond because you understand English but not everyone does. Even if the whole world did that would not make it a universal language.I don't think you understand the word universal. I do and I know it's correct in this case. Either way his point is moot because there is no self and no "other" to have empathy for. Then define "universal". And explain how you used it correctly. Universal means understood and affecting everyone. In the case I used it is correct, music is not a universal language (further supported by the arbitrary definition of music and how noise and music are hard to define). You said, "even if the whole world did", that's the same as "everyone".
I said music isn't a universal language. Nothing is. If it were then it would not require instruction to interpret it. You can respond because you understand English but not everyone does. Even if the whole world did that would not make it a universal language.I don't think you understand the word universal. I do and I know it's correct in this case. Either way his point is moot because there is no self and no "other" to have empathy for. Then define "universal". And explain how you used it correctly. Universal means understood and affecting everyone. In the case I used it is correct, music is not a universal language (further supported by the arbitrary definition of music and how noise and music are hard to define). You said, "even if the whole world did", that's the same as "everyone". Still would not make it universal.
You said, "even if the whole world did", that's the same as "everyone".Still would not make it universal. I'm just quoting what you said. So, what you said "would not make it universal". You are saying that what you said universal is, is not what universal is. You're going downhill my friend.
Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that’s not universal, i don’t know what is.
Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that's not universal, i don't know what is.It just means that it is done by all, but that fact that music is a poorly defined term doesn't make that the case exactly. Even then the argument could only be made that it's a language, but not a universal lanaguage as it's not understood by all. This is where that music/noise judgement comes into play.
Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that's not universal, i don't know what is.It just means that it is done by all, but that fact that music is a poorly defined term doesn't make that the case exactly. It would be cool to hear TromboneAndrew respond to that one.
Even then the argument could only be made that it's a language, but not a universal lanaguage as it's not understood by all. This is where that music/noise judgement comes into play.Okay let's hear the argument that music is language. I ask because I'm curious how you would define language - and how music resembles language. Just out of curiosity because its a novel notion to me. Also, I'm thinking perhaps you are confusing "understanding" with "liking".
Titanomachino, how would you explain the fact that every known society created some kind of music? If that's not universal, i don't know what is.It just means that it is done by all, but that fact that music is a poorly defined term doesn't make that the case exactly. It would be cool to hear TromboneAndrew respond to that one.
Even then the argument could only be made that it's a language, but not a universal lanaguage as it's not understood by all. This is where that music/noise judgement comes into play.Okay let's hear the argument that music is language. I ask because I'm curious how you would define language - and how music resembles language. Just out of curiosity because its a novel notion to me. Also, I'm thinking perhaps you are confusing "understanding" with "liking". I am not. Music, as some are arguing, it a method of communication. So it could be a language. But it's not universally understood what is being communicated.
Never thought about it too much from that direction.
But what I do know about music is that some of it reaches right into my body and soul and can take me to places as close to pure religion as I believe is humanly possible to get. In fact being without the constraints of language, seems one of the qualities that makes that possible.
Just for the fun of it
Elton John - Funeral for a Friend/Love Lies Bleeding (Yellow Brick Road 1 of 21) - YouTube
Communication. Hmmm, communication of feelings perhaps.
But isn’t that qualitatively different than communicating ideas and stories in language.
(lets ignore singers, and songs and lyrics, since they certainly are about telling stories and such, but they are language cloaked over “music”)
I’m more with Titanomachina on this. Music can be thought of as language, but in the sense that people talking to each other is language. We still have English, Chinese, Swahili, etc. in a similar way that we have rock, polka, raga, etc. Musical understanding seems to be based on social context more than anything else.
That said, there are a couple of musical elements that do seem to be universal. People don’t agree on happy/sad/anger in music, but I remember a study showing that people do seem to interpret intensity in similar ways - in the sense that more dissonant music can be more intense (to a point) and increasing tempo increases intensity - stuff like that. The language analogy here would be similar to listening to a person’s tone to interpret general intent in speech, not the words.
Musical understanding seems to be based on social context more than anything else.Sure, I appreciate that. In fact after writing the above I was thinking about oriental music and how totally different it is, for a foreigner like me it comes across rather unsettling, but my musical tastes are pretty old fashioned. I like songs that tell stories, I hate one phrase repeated ad nausea, totally weird instrumentation only at the right time an place. Sort of a stick in the mud. Incidentally, that was quite the David Bowie video - Lazarus. It's art, it grabs you, exactly where and how is a whole nother story. Fascinating, but not the sort of stuff I gravitate towards (see above stick in the mud reference :shut: ) re tito, It's more the language angle that's confusing me. I imagine part of it is all the writing I do. When I think language I think exchanging concrete ideas and such . I must expand my mind, ... yet again.
It's more the language angle that's confusing me. I imagine part of it is all the writing I do. When I think language I think exchanging concrete ideas and such .As a picky writer and fellow stick in the mud, I hear you. But in this case I would lump music in with art, religion, humor, and other such cultural artifacts, as forms of communication universal to all human cultures, but directed by (and arguably understandable only within) their own respective cultures. Hmm. I'm sure I started out with a point in there somewhere.
The little things for me: the total eclipse last August, watching a heart beating in a living body, the old guy wandering around the grocery store telling people jokes.
And other stuff, I’m sure.
Never thought about it too much from that direction. But what I do know about music is that some of it reaches right into my body and soul and can take me to places as close to pure religion as I believe is humanly possible to get. In fact being without the constraints of language, seems one of the qualities that makes that possible. Just for the fun of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p_xAToFzck Communication. Hmmm, communication of feelings perhaps. But isn't that qualitatively different than communicating ideas and stories in language. (lets ignore singers, and songs and lyrics, since they certainly are about telling stories and such, but they are language cloaked over "music")This was my experience growing up in Holland but listening to jazz music and songs. I couldn't understand a word of the lyrics but the combination of the musical arrangement, the voicing, and the general sound landscape allowed me to feel and empathize with the emotion expressed in the song. Even today, when I hear a song, it's the melody and harmony of the music which demands my attention first before I listen to the words. But some singers are true "story tellers". It is as if their verbal story floats on top of the music and every word is clearly audibly in harmony with the music, even if it is in a language which I do not speak myself. I can still process the emotional content. My music library consists mostly of instrumentals, but from all cultures, because I am less interested in the stories than the music and how it is used to express emotion. IMO, music is not a verbal language, it's an emotional language.
Never thought about it too much from that direction. But what I do know about music is that some of it reaches right into my body and soul and can take me to places as close to pure religion as I believe is humanly possible to get. In fact being without the constraints of language, seems one of the qualities that makes that possible. Just for the fun of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p_xAToFzck Communication. Hmmm, communication of feelings perhaps. But isn't that qualitatively different than communicating ideas and stories in language. (lets ignore singers, and songs and lyrics, since they certainly are about telling stories and such, but they are language cloaked over "music")This was my experience growing up in Holland but listening to jazz music and songs. I couldn't understand a word of the lyrics but the combination of the musical arrangement, the voicing, and the general sound landscape allowed me to feel and empathize with the emotion expressed in the song. Even today, when I hear a song, it's the melody and harmony of the music which demands my attention. But some singers are true "story tellers". It is as if their verbal story floats on top of the music and every word is clearly audibly in harmony, even if it is in a language which I do not speak myself. I can still process the emotional content. My music library consists mostly of instrumentals, but from all cultures, because I am less interested in the stories than the music and how it is used to express emotion. IMO, music is not a verbal language, it's an emotional language. Oh gag, there is no such thing as an emotional langauge. It’s just more of you projection onto something else.
Never thought about it too much from that direction. But what I do know about music is that some of it reaches right into my body and soul and can take me to places as close to pure religion as I believe is humanly possible to get. In fact being without the constraints of language, seems one of the qualities that makes that possible. Just for the fun of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p_xAToFzck Communication. Hmmm, communication of feelings perhaps. But isn't that qualitatively different than communicating ideas and stories in language. (lets ignore singers, and songs and lyrics, since they certainly are about telling stories and such, but they are language cloaked over "music")This was my experience growing up in Holland but listening to jazz music and songs. I couldn't understand a word of the lyrics but the combination of the musical arrangement, the voicing, and the general sound landscape allowed me to feel and empathize with the emotion expressed in the song. Even today, when I hear a song, it's the melody and harmony of the music which demands my attention. But some singers are true "story tellers". It is as if their verbal story floats on top of the music and every word is clearly audibly in harmony, even if it is in a language which I do not speak myself. I can still process the emotional content. My music library consists mostly of instrumentals, but from all cultures, because I am less interested in the stories than the music and how it is used to express emotion. IMO, music is not a verbal language, it's an emotional language. Oh gag, there is no such thing as an emotional langauge. It’s just more of you projection onto something else. How would you know? Had any experience in the field? I do know something about it. I do know what it feels like to connect musically with an audience. I made my living as a musician for 10 years, playing Las Vegas, Reno, Lake Tahoe, Los Angeles, Chicago. So gag all you wish, it is of no consequence to me, it just confirms your ignorance and refusal to listen (in more ways than one).
It seems you don’t understand that the connnection you feel isn’t exactly real but more like you thinking you are connecting with others. You are projecting, the same way everyone else does in a crowd or among others. The feeling of connection seems to be more of an illusion, albeit a pleasant one.
Hate to burst your bubble music man, but it’s all in your head. You can’t communicate emotions through any language. Not through music because of how subjective it is and how different people respond to the same sound (and what some consider music others find to be noise) and not through poetry. Nothing short of a mind link could let you communicate emotions.
That’s the problem with artsy types, they make their feelings out to be more than what they actually are.
It seems you don’t understand that the connnection you feel isn’t exactly real but more like you thinking you are connecting with others. You are projecting, the same way everyone else does in a crowd or among others. The feeling of connection seems to be more of an illusion, albeit a pleasant one. Hate to burst your bubble music man, but it’s all in your head. You can’t communicate emotions through any language. Not through music because of how subjective it is and how different people respond to the same sound (and what some consider music others find to be noise) and not through poetry. Nothing short of a mind link could let you communicate emotions. That’s the problem with artsy types, they make their feelings out to be more than what they actually are.Which may have applied at one time, but I am now a retired bookkeeper for a large company. Not much room for feelings or artistic creativity, just numbers. And you are right in saying it's all in our heads. I really think it's about time you watched this. https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality