Well, yes, the Borg are one possibility, but don't forget Deanna Troi's race who could also connect mentally with each other (OK, I'd hate to have Roxanna as my mother-in-law :lol: ). ===== I don't usually go to the links posted, but thought I should, here. I checked out Pop-Sci and they were only talking about photographing license plates and occupants of cars. That's scary, but only one small part of our loss. Every time we buy something in a store that has a camera, or use our credit cards or even write a check, the same thing happens. BTW, I saw a reference on that site to some movie star wearing a tiny bikini. I thought I'd check it out. Geez, you can see far smaller "garments" on the Santa Monica beach. :) It also brought to mind something that happened about 40 years ago when bikinis had become very popular. Some company made and sold white ones of a synthetic thread, possibly Dacron. Because the index of refraction of the fabric was different from air, they appeared bright white. However, the index of refraction was very similar to that of water, so as soon as they got wet they became quite transparent. Amazing how fast they were taken off the market. :lol: OccamThe problem with photographing the plates and the drivers is that they are storing every single photo and indexing them so lets say your political enemy who may have access to the data decides he wants to dig up some dirt on you. He can trace your movements back in time through every capture and determine where you have been and who you have been with over the past months. They can identify your associates, your activities and lots of other personal information that is none of their business. Right now law enforcement is using this to identify suspects in a crime and they are reporting at least one success but eventually they will use nothing but this circumstantial evidence alone to make an arrest and maybe even a conviction so that someone who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person may find themselves behind bars without having done anything wrong. That is theory now but it will almost certainly happen as this technology gets used more and more. P.S. - Its amazing how quickly a hot body gets you off topic Occam. Focus, Focus.. Oh hell.. do you have the link to those bikini pictures?
Besides Orwellian ideas of cameras in everyone's home. Or microchips in our heads. Or blacklists.Why are Orwellian ideas not valid concerns? The surveillance that exists now could snowball into something Orwellian - that is what I'm worried about.
You all remind me of the episode of the Twilight Zone…“The Monsters on Maple St.”
Lois said America is a nation of “doormats”. How true!
Does anyone have any evidence of the US spying on American citizens? If you do please list it. Including any laws that were broken in the process.
As far as laws being broken…Snowden broke several laws and is running from the law. He is literally being charged with crimes.
I suppose Snowden doesn’t want to return to the US because of Kangaroo Courts? He’s the one being railroaded right?
The contents of sensitive National Security files have obviously been combed completely by the Chinese and the Russians due to his actions.
The United States is a bi-cameral legislative body with elected officials, it has a separate and many layered judicial system, and an Executive branch that can survive for 8 years maximum! We have complete freedom of the press and of speech to name a few.
Please tell me who is running this Big brother Government? What is behind it? And why does it want all of your secret, private information?
Most of you are caught up in a hysteria. It’s laughable!
Everyone keeps talking about vague, shadowy Big Brother entities. No one can actually cite any evidence of any crimes. They would be crimes!
Where are the victims? Is any one in jail or court right now as a result of all this spying?
Give me examples of how your freedoms are being curtailed!
I want specific examples!
You are all rooting for an American traitor.
None of you even responded to my posts. This post: Right here…I hate to quote myself, but did anyone bother to actually read this?
You are misguided. I know all of your arguments. There’s no need to quote them. I get the whole spiel, I even sympathize with it!
But you are misguided.
Point of fact…Snowden is the exact opposite of a hero. That’s an objective fact.
You don’t get it. You are another victim of this early 21st century meme that the Tea-Party and the Occupy movement are exploiting for example.
It’s a meme. When everything rinses out you are a citizen of the United States.
And I know you don’t get it…but everything you have invested in this idea of citizenship(which is a deep word, with lot’s of attachments you are taking for granted.)is being compromised by the likes of Snowden.
The fact that Snowden is now in the clutches of a REAL totalitarian regime that is corrupt and run by a former corrupt KGB official criminal is a matter of fact.
Before you reply you should seriously look around you, and see what your investments both in body and soul, money and time, family and friends, are invested in. In this place, the US that you call home.
You are on a meme that is a passing fad in the annals of time. This whole Big Government thing. You don’t even know what govt. means.
Spying has gone on since forever. We’ve had instances in the past where citizens were the victim of the types of things you folks describe.
Every country has. It’s nothing new. It isn’t getting worse. Our judicial and legislative bodies have grown from these experiences and strengthened our system.
If any wrong doing has been committed it will come out. In the meantime you guys go right on rooting for a Bona Fide traitor.
A misguided, misled, opportunist.
Anyways why don’t ya’ll just keep carrying on with each other about how we are becoming a Big Brother State. Really, I’d love to hear some personal experiences you have all had with this.
Here’s another quick point…
There’s literally thousands of these contractors and govt. employees right?
Why only Snowden? Why is it just Snowden after all of these years? Hmmmnn?
Because he’s another whack job caught up in the very same meme I’ve explained above.
If it’s so bad, why didn’t others come out?
I just thought that I’d mention that Big Brother is no longer a derogatory term as it used to be. In fact, you can be a fly on the wall by signing up for a three month subscription at CBS (they even provide a free trial offer.) You can select camera scenes and view 24/7. This reality show is in line with Survivor as two of the best entertainment reality programs ever! If you get a chance, I highly recommend anyone here who hasn’t seen it to check it out for a season. It may help give you the sense of my earlier comments.
Vyazma, you asked for evidence of spying by the government. I think that because of its very nature of secrecy, it would be harder to directly provide sufficient evidence of such behavior unless others involved break the silence. One thing Snowden did mention was that his living salary was quite adequate when he worked in confidence. This alone is incentive for those working with any organization to stay quiet. Also, there are always severe penalties for spilling the beans. Corporations themselves have lobbied strong to reserve the powers to sue individuals for telling insider secrets regardless of how damaging they may be. So governments certainly have at least as much and usually more powers to do so.
You have to recognize the true nature of humans to be self-serving first and foremost. This is only a natural phenomena of all animals and living things. In other words, we are just as often evil as we are good, especially if we believe that we can get away with it. Under this presumption, I cannot imagine that some arbitrary group could not but help to take advantage of any opportunity that is presentable. And even if no one shakes hands, silent understood agreements are made in these groups by acting in common ways to capitalize on the same tactics if no one is resisting.
Take the club membership offers that most corporations are either giving away as some type of incentive or even selling them to unwary consumers. The other day a lady at the Cole’s bookstore here asked me if I’d like a membership card for reduced prices and offers. I already know that the only function of those cards are for data mining consumers personal purchases to determine demands to price things and other functional statistics. I decided to agree to one assuming that it was free as most other businesses have been doing. Not until I got home did I realize that my bill was charged for it. And now I’m only presuming that they’ve added the purchase as a means to get deals if-and-only-if you purchase on a regular basis. To me, this is deceptive practice.
My local Extra Foods store (Superstore subsidiary) encourages people to use their cards as well. I didn’t get one but I am seeing a whole new way that they do business. Prices, for example, are altered within only an hour now. They are able to use their data to determine when certain people come in to do their purchasing. They also know what products you will likely buy during those times and target these products for manipulative pricing. For example, one day I went in to buy coffee and discovered that the No-name product that I and most others prefer had jumped up from $8 to $15.99 while certain chosen brands were priced unusually low ($10 av.)
If manipulating how others to obtain private information is easily dressed as a gain, and it becomes prevalent in all the other industries similarly related, people are losing certain privileges by deception unilaterally because those businesses that don’t use those tactics cannot possibly compete with them. Information is powerful.
The ubiquity of EULAs that are all serving to protect the corporate interests are similar. For instance, even though I have the right to refuse service by organizations that use such self-serving waivers, you are virtually out of luck to find any competent service, product or software that both enables you to keep your freedoms and get good value from it. Facebook is just such an example. You can try to go to some other competitor like My Space but they too are doing the same thing. And where else can you then turn to for the same value? Perhaps it might be fine to resort to something like Nero’s online chat and messaging service provided with their disc ware. But then you’re restricted to the five other people who use it.
And if corporations are using every tactic in the book AND succeeding without serious resistance, how can you presume that any government who creates laws that can easily create better protections from such business allowance, are NOT even going to think about doing the same thing? And they don’t even have to be accountable directly for the most part because it is those private corporations that are collecting who are considered responsible. The governments just act as any other private corporation by purchasing the data as a business deal. And since we’ve had no other choice to sign their EULAs, the companies can pass the blame on the consumer. Everybody wins.
What I think you should ask yourself, Vyazma, or anyone else for that matter, is whether it is impossible for governments to be opportunistic and Capitalize (Could capitalizing even be possible in a Capitalistic society?) on anything? Then what are the consequences if they don’t even try?
Here’s an interesting short report, that has a few links embedded, it to further information, so you may want to look at the original at NSA Now Revealing A Lot More About What It Does Than Snowden Leaks Did; So Is That Harming America? | Techdirt
NSA Now Revealing A Lot More About What It Does Than Snowden Leaks Did; So Is That Harming America? from the just-wondering dept One of the key refrains that has come out from those who are unhappy about the revelation of details around the NSA's surveillance efforts is that Edward Snowden's leaks are somehow harmful to America. During hearings about all of this, NSA boss Keith Alexander claimed that "Americans will die" because of these sorts of leaks. But... between those same hearings and other revelations from the administration and Congress, we're actually learning much more about the various programs directly from the government, as information is now being "declassified." And, apparently, President Obama is asking the NSA and the Justice Department to look into declassifying even more. So while the initial shove to declassify information may have come via Snowden, the stuff that we're really learning about is coming through revelations following Snowden's leaks -- revelations that never would have happened without his leaks. So that raises a fairly basic question: if Snowden is somehow a traitor and putting lives at risk... why isn't the other information we're actually learning about the programs equally as problematic? The real answer seems to be that the information Snowden leaked does not harm us at all, but has simply revealed that the government has kept classified information from the American public that never should have been classified at all. The fact that only now are they looking to declassify it (and then doing so) shows pretty clearly that the information was improperly classified in the first place.So if Snowden helped convince officials to start sharing this information... why does that make him a bad guy? And what did he release that's specifically damaging to anything but "secrets" that most other interested governments were already aware of anyways?
Oh and what about the other nearly 5 million people who have security clearance, some of whom may well be quietly doing all sorts of personal illegal stuff with information at their finger tips. Heck, Snowden deserves a big thanks just for revealing how sloppy our “nation’s secrets” are being administered.
Private Contractors' Key Role At Issue In NSA Leak by THE ASSOCIATED PRESS - June 11, 201312:18 AM http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=190544095 NEW YORK (AP) — People like Edward Snowden — nearly 500,000 employees of private firms with access to the government's most sensitive secrets — play a crucial role: They help monitor threats to national security... {...} Of the 4.9 million people with clearance to access "confidential and secret" government information, 1.1 million, or 21 percent, work for outside contractors, according to a report from Clapper's office. Of the 1.4 million who have the higher "top secret" access, 483,000, or 34 percent, work for contractors...
Oh yea, here's a related item from NPR's All Things Considered. Data Leak Could Undermine Trust In Government Contractor by JIM ZARROLI - June 11, 2013 5:23 AM http://www.npr.org/2013/06/11/190570939/nsa-leak-could-undermine-trust-of-government-contractor
Quoting Macgyver:
At least one sci-fi genre has explored potential outcome of this concept {universal telepathy} in some detail. Perhaps you’ve heard of the Borg.I woke up at 3:00 a.m. with three thoughts: 1) Need for bladder voiding, 2) Deanna’s race was Betazoid, 3) It was Loxanna, not Roxanna.
Occam
Quoting Macgyver:Either way she was a bitchAt least one sci-fi genre has explored potential outcome of this concept {universal telepathy} in some detail. Perhaps you’ve heard of the Borg.I woke up at 3:00 a.m. with three thoughts: 1) Need for bladder voiding, 2) Deanna's race was Betazoid, 3) It was Loxanna, not Roxanna. :) Occam
Here’s a relevant article on the subject from the NYT.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/you-say-you-want-a-revolution/?hp
I am flabbergasted by VYAZMA’s viewpoint.
No state has the right to spy on his citizens, or of other country’s citizens in absolute secrecy.
A ‘secret agency’ might be necessary to find out where possible threats for the safety of people can arise. But the people have to know in the first place that such an agency exists, and what its tasks and methods are. And in the second place, how these tasks and methods are done must be under democratic control. At least a parliamentarian committee must have insight in what the agency really is doing, and check that it is inside the borders drawn by law.
It is the obligation of every person who finds out that such an agency operates outside the law to make this publicly. AFAIK the NSA crossed several borders, and the Americans officially did not know it existed for several years (‘No Such Agency’). And now it seems nobody was informed about the methods and extent of the NSA’s activities. So Snowden did the right thing, and it is a shame for the western world that the only place where he is not arrested is in countries that the traditional competitors for world domination and its allies.
Switzerland once had its own affair], the outcry was very loud!
PS During I was posting this, the connection became very bad. Is the NSA scanning my post? %-P
I am flabbergasted by VYAZMA's viewpoint. No state has the right to spy on his citizens, or of other country's citizens in absolute secrecy. A 'secret agency' might be necessary to find out where possible threats for the safety of people can arise. But the people have to know in the first place that such an agency exists, and what its tasks and methods are. And in the second place, how these tasks and methods are done must be under democratic control. At least a parliamentarian committee must have insight in what the agency really is doing, and check that it is inside the borders drawn by law. It is the obligation of every person who finds out that such an agency operates outside the law to make this publicly. AFAIK the NSA crossed several borders, and the Americans officially did not know it existed for several years ('No Such Agency'). And now it seems nobody was informed about the methods and extent of the NSA's activities. So Snowden did the right thing, and it is a shame for the western world that the only place where he is not arrested is in countries that the traditional competitors for world domination and its allies. Switzerland once had its own affair], the outcry was very loud! PS During I was posting this, the connection became very bad. Is the NSA scanning my post? %-POf course, that's always possible! You're right, the worst thing about this whole fiasco is the secrecy. If what they were doing was as they said said after fact, why couldn't the American public be told about it? Everyone else in the workd evidently knows what the US government is up to, why not the Americans whose phone activity was being collected? Why was tge government afraid of Americans knowing about this claimed benign surveillance? I now trust the US government less than ever.
Yet we pride ourselves as the most open society in the World when in fact the leakers show us otherwise. Personally I think that Snowden shouldn’t hide from prosecution but return to the States and accept whatever fate awaits him whether it be prison, fine or whatever. He has been made so high profile that it would be impossible for hide him away without a Congressional inquiry. He should take a page from Thoreau, Dr. king or Ghandi. Civil Disobedience is sometimes necessary but you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your own actions when you do. Outing those secrets for the good of the public was noble, now face the punishment that martyrs face and don’t hide in fear. It just tarnishes the meaning (if altruism is his real aim) of the act.
“If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law"
― Henry David Thoreau
Cap’t Jack
Here's a relevant article on the subject from the NYT. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/you-say-you-want-a-revolution/?hpIt's an interesting article that makes a good point but its flawed in its assertion that the Snowden situation is an example of the case he is trying to make. Snowden was not trying to create a revolution or overthrow the government or even create an abstinent obstruction to the normal functioning of our government. He identified a governmental process that had gone astray and brought it to the attention of the American people so that the democratic process could function the way its supposed to.
Yet we pride ourselves as the most open society in the World when in fact the leakers show us otherwise. Personally I think that Snowden shouldn't hide from prosecution but return to the States and accept whatever fate awaits him whether it be prison, fine or whatever. He has been made so high profile that it would be impossible for hide him away without a Congressional inquiry. He should take a page from Thoreau, Dr. king or Ghandi. Civil Disobedience is sometimes necessary but you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your own actions when you do. Outing those secrets for the good of the public was noble, now face the punishment that martyrs face and don't hide in fear. It just tarnishes the meaning (if altruism is his real aim) of the act. “If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law" ― Henry David Thoreau Cap't JackFor me, the choice to run is Snowden's decision and nobody else's. I, along with many others, would rather focus on the information that was leaked and its implications, as well as the manner in which the US tries to deal with the situation, including Snowden. Those are the primary issues.
I am flabbergasted by VYAZMA's viewpoint.Yes, yes....
No state has the right to spy on his citizens, or of other country's citizens in absolute secrecy.This here....what? Really? Did you just type this right out? "I'm typing away, what a lovely day!" Zero substance...zero fact.
A 'secret agency' might be necessary to find out where possible threats for the safety of people can arise. But the people have to know in the first place that such an agency exists, and what its tasks and methods are. And in the second place, how these tasks and methods are done must be under democratic control. At least a parliamentarian committee must have insight in what the agency really is doing, and check that it is inside the borders drawn by law.Great points there GdB....yeah, all Americans know the NSA exists. The subject of them spying on us has come up before. Most of us and certainly Congress knows what their tasks are. Everything they were doing was within the borders of the law as far as everyone can tell so far.
It is the obligation of every person who finds out that such an agency operates outside the law to make this publicly. AFAIK the NSA crossed several borders, and the Americans officially did not know it existed for several years ('No Such Agency'). And now it seems nobody was informed about the methods and extent of the NSA's activities. So Snowden did the right thing, and it is a shame for the western world that the only place where he is not arrested is in countries that the traditional competitors for world domination and its allies.What have you dug up so far about them operating outside the law? The last part of this paragraph? World Domination? Snowden took it upon himself to "out" the service he worked for on his own subjective(probably CT, or fringy)ideas. He's the only one in 10 years or so. But GdB you aren't an American so I would expect these comments from you more. Anyways, still waiting to see what laws were broken. Other than Snowden's espionage.
Here's a relevant article on the subject from the NYT. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/02/you-say-you-want-a-revolution/?hpIt's an interesting article that makes a good point but its flawed in its assertion that the Snowden situation is an example of the case he is trying to make. Snowden was not trying to create a revolution or overthrow the government or even create an abstinent obstruction to the normal functioning of our government. He identified a governmental process that had gone astray and brought it to the attention of the American people so that the democratic process could function the way its supposed to. Snowden did not identify anything that had gone astray. That's just you falling along with the far right and far left "armchair rebellion". That's what the article talked about! The fact that Snowden broke the law and you are rooting for him is just what the article talked about. As the public is finding out...no laws are being broken by the NSA and they are not spying on you or me. What are we left with? One man who illegally took it upon himself to flee the country with sensitive documents that have now been revealed to China and Russia and who knows who else. On the surface, and actually in reality, the service that Snowden decided was unjust was for your protection and security. So one man, decided the fate of everyone's safety ostensible because he felt that it was wrong that he had the ability, the ability(not the authority) to tap the president's phone. There is probably a majority of Americans who feel the NSA for example is doing the right thing. What about their say in the matter? They were betrayed! By loonies like you! Armchair "rebels without a cause"! Armchair rebels without a cause! I like that....That friggin' fits beautifully!
For me, the choice to run is Snowden’s decision and nobody else’s. I, along with many others, would rather focus on the information that was leaked and its implications, as well as the manner in which the US tries to deal with the situation, including Snowden. Those are the primary issues.Of course it is and nowhere did I imply that it wasn't. My point is that surrendering himself to authorities would lend credence to his act if he had the best interests of the people in mind. Posting the secret memos then running leads public opinion to believe that his actions had an ulterior motive, especially after seeking asylum in two countries with whom we have issues. In effect he has branded himself a traitor, leading the public to see his actions as treasonous and the material he released as threatening the people instead of revealing what certain governmental departments are allegedly covering up. Cap't Jack
That's pretty well balanced Village. I go one step farther and add..."So what did he reveal?" Nothing it seems. Also that he is in fact a traitor by definition. It appears he has only "outed" what the public has already known, suspected, and debated and most importantly addressed through Congress and the courts before. What we have is a new class of citizens who are the victims of the fallout from 9-11 essentially. The "truthers", the CTers, the People who are afraid of Big Brother and all of the security that has followed 9-11. Security which has been reformed, debated, and scrutinized repeatedly by lawmakers and executives and the public. Snowden is one of these misguided folks who knew he would have an audience in these people. That's it! Our country has been through these times before all the way back to the Sedition Act, The repressing of Mail by the Southern Dems in Antebellum US, COINTELPRO, McCarthyism..it's nothing new. "Whoaaa", you say..."you're bolstering our points!" No, no I'm not. I'm bolstering my points. The fact that the Wash Post and Guardian can print these items is just one example of my point. The NSA activities were not in essence secret to the American People or lawmakers. Every single person here knows they were spying!!! Externally as well as in internally. What we have here is overblown hysteria and cheering for an American Traitor. A misguided man who got caught up in the memes.For me, the choice to run is Snowden’s decision and nobody else’s. I, along with many others, would rather focus on the information that was leaked and its implications, as well as the manner in which the US tries to deal with the situation, including Snowden. Those are the primary issues.Of course it is and nowhere did I imply that it wasn't. My point is that surrendering himself to authorities would lend credence to his act if he had the best interests of the people in mind. Posting the secret memos then running leads public opinion to believe that his actions had an ulterior motive, especially after seeking asylum in two countries with whom we have issues. In effect he has branded himself a traitor, leading the public to see his actions as treasonous and the material he released as threatening the people instead of revealing what certain governmental departments are allegedly covering up. Cap't Jack
Is this the kind of Commitment to Freedom you want to protect for people?
You better believe agencies are monitoring this stuff. Thank goodness they are.