Oh THAT'S what he's saying. I thought it was something else. That explains the funny looks I was getting.Sr. Member Total Posts: 680 Joined 2012-04-25 The real giveaway with these religious nuts and their “plan B" is that if scientists actually did prove there was an intelligent creator AND it was a She AND/OR a Muslim or Buddhist or Jew, they’d never go for it.Or as the philosopher/song writer Manfred Mann once wrote: "But she was blinded by the light, revved up like a deuce another runner in the night"! One of my personal favorites from the 70's. Cap't Jack
I see you have been cutting and pasting this argument around the internet for over a year now. At least you shortened it for us (thank you Jesus). I also see that you ignore every comment ever made and fail to engage anyone in any real discussion. So, don’t complain about not getting quality answers here, we have seen posts like this before.
Read this]. At the bottom there is a link to TalkOrigins.org. If you can come up with good counter arguments to anything said on those two websites, come back and we’ll talk.
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE: Notice that several skeptics have now shown up in the thread with nothing resembling a credible explanation for why the first 60-discovered elements on the Periodic Table are so precise. So precise are they that they are referred to in the scientific world as "LAW." This is a website where rational thought is emphasized; is it not? Well, guess what? None of the above comments regarding my OP come close to anything that could be considered "rational". I am waiting for a skeptic to explain how the precision among the first 60-discovered elements could have resulted from accidents or by spontaneous means.You are picking one aspect of the universe and claiming it is so precise only a god could have created it. What about all the imprecision in the universe? The imprecisions that cause natural disasters that wipe out species? The imprecisions that allow devastating disease, injury and pain to the precise creator's creations? Answer that question before you posit perfect precision. If you are going to claim precision by a creator you must be prepared to explain and justify the devastating aspects of imprecision, which is even more obvious than a few examples of seeming precision. ALTER2EGO -to- LOIS L: You mean the imprecisions caused by wicked humans who have chosen to ignore Jehovah's instructions and have chosen to abuse the environment because of their greed for more profits, causing the following: 1. Heavy use of fossil fuels that have caused global warming, which, in turn, results in melting of the ice caps. 2. The melting of the ice caps, in turn, has resulted in devastating floods where none previously were. 3. The melting of the ice caps has caused the ocean waters to rise and swallow up various Pacific islands where people once lived and is threatening to swallow other Pacific islands. 4. Global warming has resulted in more powerful and therefore more deadly hurricanes. 5. Humans have ruined the environment with pesticides, which kill off insects that are vital to the health of the soil. 6. Humans have spilled oil in the sea and killed off wildlife and sea creatures. 7. Humans have purposely and illegally dumped waste materials in the ocean and destroyed sea creatures. 8. Humans have ruined land and sea with plastic and other useless materials that they had no business creating from the get-go. And that is just a tip of the iceberg. I have not even touched the moral decay of humanity that has resulted in all types of diseases--because humans have refused to follow Jehovah's guidelines. You are complaining about the consequences of wicked human behaviors--the same wicked humans who reject Jehovah's instructions, found in his inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Most humans have misused their God-given free will and have chosen to abuse themselves and the environment. And then you blame the consequences of their behavior on the Creator. Obviously, you brought up the above in an attempt at evading the issues raised in my OP, namely, how 60 different elements could be precise by accident. Exactly when will you or another skeptic provide the answer to that question?
Obviously, you brought up the above in an attempt at evading the issues raised in my OP, namely, how 60 different elements could be precise by accident. Exactly when will you or another skeptic provide the answer to that question?We've already answered that question, troll. Go find another bridge to hide under.
QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION: 1. Were it not for the precise relationship among the first 60 discovered elements on the Periodic Table, would scientists have been able to accurately predict the existence of forms of matter that at the time were unknown?As to #1, remember that it was the scientists themselves who accurately "discovered" the elements and not ancient proto-scientists who knew only four. And, no they probably wouldn't have been able to accurately predict the forms of matter, but what's your point here? If the foundation of your argument is Intelligent Design which is the book of Creationism with a new dust jacket then you are (and this is an assumption, you might be Muslim) basing your whole contention on the Bible, an non-scientific cobbled together collection of Bronze Age and early Iron Age intuitions having nothing to do with emperical knowledge. ALTER2EGO -to- THE VILLAGE ATHEIST: What point are you attempting to make? That the scientists are supposed to get credit for discovering the existence of elements that are all precise, but which the scientists did not create? Next you will be arguing that the person who first discovered that wine can be made from grapes also created the grapes.
2. Could the precise law within the first 60 discovered elements (on the Periodic Table) have resulted by chance aka spontaneously aka by accident? Or is this evidence for the existence an intelligent Designer/God who guided the outcome?As to #2, the answer is an emphatic yes! Spontaneous, or as you term it by "accident"." A through reading of any monograph by a reputable astro physicist will answer your question. You could start with Phil Plait's Death From the Skies or Lawrence Krauss's A Universe From Nothing or if you want visuals, Sagan's Cosmos. You're using Paley's Watch maker analogy and it may have been a plausible explanation in the 18th Century but has no provenance in the 21st. It's time to move on. You'll find the answers your looking for in science, not religion. Now you are giving me atheist fairytales that you got from reading "any monograph by a reputable astro physicist." By definition, a spontaneous event occurs without planning, and by definition, an accident causes negative results. DEFINITION OF "ACCIDENT": a nonessential event that HAPPENS BY CHANCE and has undesirable or unfortunate results." (Source: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary) The fact that all of the first 60-discovered elements are precise and they are all interrelated is the first clue that theirs is not an "unfortunate result" because an "unfortunate result" would have caused them NOT to be interrelated and would have caused NOT to each be precise.
Obviously, you brought up the above in an attempt at evading the issues raised in my OP, namely, how 60 different elements could be precise by accident. Exactly when will you or another skeptic provide the answer to that question?I think I can answer that for you. Never. Not because you have asked a deeply thoughtful question but because your question is not in search of an answer. You came here to make a proclamation not to debate. Several members have attempted to engage you in thoughtful discussion but your responses are non-sensical and rambling. You clearly came to proselytize not to engage in a rational discussion. Most people here are happy to debate religious believers but i don't see anything constructive coming from a conversation with you. You add nothing new to the debate and your mind is too closed to take anything useful away from it.
I see you have been cutting and pasting this argument around the internet for over a year now. At least you shortened it for us (thank you Jesus). I also see that you ignore every comment ever made and fail to engage anyone in any real discussion. So, don't complain about not getting quality answers here, we have seen posts like this before. Read this]. At the bottom there is a link to TalkOrigins.org. If you can come up with good counter arguments to anything said on those two websites, come back and we'll talk.ALTER2EGO -to- LAUSTEN: I debate the same topics wherever I go because I and others find them to be meaningful and because I want to discuss them with as many different people as possible. BTW: I do not click bare weblinks. You need to briefly quote the relevant portion from your source, in addition to providing the weblink. You also need to explain what point the quoted portion from your source is supposed to be making.
I see you have been cutting and pasting this argument around the internet for over a year now. At least you shortened it for us (thank you Jesus). I also see that you ignore every comment ever made and fail to engage anyone in any real discussion. So, don't complain about not getting quality answers here, we have seen posts like this before. Read this]. At the bottom there is a link to TalkOrigins.org. If you can come up with good counter arguments to anything said on those two websites, come back and we'll talk.ALTER2EGO -to- LAUSTEN: I debate the same topics wherever I go because I and others find them to be meaningful and because I want to discuss them with as many different people as possible. BTW: I do not click bare weblinks. You need to briefly quote the relevant portion from your source, in addition to providing the weblink. You also need to explain what point the quoted portion from your source is supposed to be making.I believe you missed my post: If scientists proved that there was an intelligent creator, and it turned out to be a female who believed Islam was the true religion, would you accept their proof? I just want to find out if you're in this for the truth or for some not-so-obscure ulterior motive?
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE: Notice that several skeptics have now shown up in the thread with nothing resembling a credible explanation for why the first 60-discovered elements on the Periodic Table are so precise. So precise are they that they are referred to in the scientific world as "LAW." This is a website where rational thought is emphasized; is it not? Well, guess what? None of the above comments regarding my OP come close to anything that could be considered "rational". I am waiting for a skeptic to explain how the precision among the first 60-discovered elements could have resulted from accidents or by spontaneous means.You are picking one aspect of the universe and claiming it is so precise only a god could have created it. What about all the imprecision in the universe? The imprecisions that cause natural disasters that wipe out species? The imprecisions that allow devastating disease, injury and pain to the precise creator's creations? Answer that question before you posit perfect precision. If you are going to claim precision by a creator you must be prepared to explain and justify the devastating aspects of imprecision, which is even more obvious than a few examples of seeming precision. ALTER2EGO -to- LOIS L: You mean the imprecisions caused by wicked humans who have chosen to ignore Jehovah's instructions and have chosen to abuse the environment because of their greed for more profits, causing the following: 1. Heavy use of fossil fuels that have caused global warming, which, in turn, results in melting of the ice caps. 2. The melting of the ice caps, in turn, has resulted in devastating floods where none previously were. 3. The melting of the ice caps has caused the ocean waters to rise and swallow up various Pacific islands where people once lived and is threatening to swallow other Pacific islands. 4. Global warming has resulted in more powerful and therefore more deadly hurricanes. 5. Humans have ruined the environment with pesticides, which kill off insects that are vital to the health of the soil. 6. Humans have spilled oil in the sea and killed off wildlife and sea creatures. 7. Humans have purposely and illegally dumped waste materials in the ocean and destroyed sea creatures. 8. Humans have ruined land and sea with plastic and other useless materials that they had no business creating from the get-go. And that is just a tip of the iceberg. I have not even touched the moral decay of humanity that has resulted in all types of diseases--because humans have refused to follow Jehovah's guidelines. You are complaining about the consequences of wicked human behaviors--the same wicked humans who reject Jehovah's instructions, found in his inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Most humans have misused their God-given free will and have chosen to abuse themselves and the environment. And then you blame the consequences of their behavior on the Creator. What perfect and precise creator would create humans who could or would do what you have listed? If your perfect creator didn't want his creations to do those things, was he not powerful or precise enoughto create them with less tendency to destroy the earth and each other? If the god you posit is so perfect and precise how could he and why would he create such a destructive species? The destructive tendencies of humans do not speak to a precise and perfect creator. If humans are destructive your creator must have wanted them to be that way--unless he's not nearly as perfect or precise, as you claim. You wrote, "Obviously, you brought up the above in an attempt at evading the issues raised in my OP, namely, how 60 different elements could be precise by accident. Exactly when will you or another skeptic provide the answer to that question?" Who was the perfect being who created the wicked humans who have "chosen" to "ignore Jehovah's instructions and have "chosen" to abuse the environment because of their greed for more profits" etc? What precise and perfect creator would create something so flawed? The elements you assume are so "perfect" were derived from material dispersed by the big bang. There is good reason to assume they always existed. No creator,no precision, no perfection necessary. You aasume a contradictory fairytale.
ALTER2EGO -to- THE VILLAGE ATHEIST: What point are you attempting to make? That the scientists are supposed to get credit for discovering the existence of elements that are all precise, but which the scientists did not create? Next you will be arguing that the person who first discovered that wine can be made from grapes also created the grapes.You're talking past me with simplistic strawman arguments. I have no idea what you mean by your analogy. Ok, yes the scientists received credit for (once again) "discovering" the elements. I In no way am arguing that the scientists actually created those elements. Your last sentence is an obviously fallacious analogy and proves nothing, let alone the existence of some supernatural entity. Come back when you have actual proof of your contention. So far, you've offered none. Cap't Jack
ALTER2EGO -to- LOIS L: You mean the imprecisions caused by wicked humans who have chosen to ignore Jehovah's instructions and have chosen to abuse the environment because of their greed for more profits, causing the following: 1. Heavy use of fossil fuels that have caused global warming, which, in turn, results in melting of the ice caps. 2. The melting of the ice caps, in turn, has resulted in devastating floods where none previously were. 3. The melting of the ice caps has caused the ocean waters to rise and swallow up various Pacific islands where people once lived and is threatening to swallow other Pacific islands. 4. Global warming has resulted in more powerful and therefore more deadly hurricanes. 5. Humans have ruined the environment with pesticides, which kill off insects that are vital to the health of the soil. 6. Humans have spilled oil in the sea and killed off wildlife and sea creatures. 7. Humans have purposely and illegally dumped waste materials in the ocean and destroyed sea creatures. 8. Humans have ruined land and sea with plastic and other useless materials that they had no business creating from the get-go. And that is just a tip of the iceberg. I have not even touched the moral decay of humanity that has resulted in all types of diseases--because humans have refused to follow Jehovah's guidelines. You are complaining about the consequences of wicked human behaviors--the same wicked humans who reject Jehovah's instructions, found in his inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Most humans have misused their God-given free will and have chosen to abuse themselves and the environment. And then you blame the consequences of their behavior on the Creator.What perfect and precise creator would create humans who could or would do what you have listed? If your perfect creator didn't want his creations to do those things, was he not powerful or precise enoughto create them with less tendency to destroy the earth and each other? If the god you posit is so perfect and precise how could he and why would he create such a destructive species? The destructive tendencies of humans do not speak to a precise and perfect creator. If humans are destructive your creator must have wanted them to be that way--unless he's not nearly as perfect or precise, as you claim. You wrote, "Obviously, you brought up the above in an attempt at evading the issues raised in my OP, namely, how 60 different elements could be precise by accident. Exactly when will you or another skeptic provide the answer to that question?" Who was the perfect being who created the wicked humans who have "chosen" to "ignore Jehovah's instructions and have "chosen" to abuse the environment because of their greed for more profits" etc? What precise and perfect creator would create something so flawed? The elements you assume are so "perfect" were derived from material dispersed by the big bang. There is good reason to assume they always existed. No creator,no precision, no perfection necessary. You aasume a contradictory fairytale. ALTER2EGO -to- LOIS L: Now you are attempting to derail my thread. This is the second time you changed the goal post. And you are doing that so that you can keep running from the issues raised in my OP. LOIS L's CHANGE OF GOAL POST #1: God is to blame for the imperfections in nature and deserves no credit for the precision in the natural world. Therefore, precision happened by itself.
You are picking one aspect of the universe and claiming it is so precise only a god could have created it. What about all the imprecision in the universe? The imprecisions that cause natural disasters that wipe out species? The imprecisions that allow devastating disease, injury and pain to the precise creator's creations? Answer that question before you posit perfect precision. If you are going to claim precision by a creator you must be prepared to explain and justify the devastating aspects of imprecision, which is even more obvious than a few examples of seeming precision.LOIS L's CHANGE OF GOAL POST #2: God is to blame for not creating humans like robots. He should not have endowed them with free will aka the ability to make independent choices.
What perfect and precise creator would create humans who could or would do what you have listed? If your perfect creator didn't want his creations to do those things, was he not powerful or precise enoughto create them with less tendency to destroy the earth and each other?Next you will be telling the rest of us that a human parent is to blame for the independent behavior of their grown children--after the parent provided sound instructions to the children until they reach adulthood. To hear you tell it, humans are not responsible for their behavior. God, who created them and who provided them with instructions in the Bible and who endowed them with free will so that they could make use of his Biblical instructions, he is to blame for the humans who rebelled against him and rejected his instructions. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? FYI: If you think I will help you derail my thread, think again. This thread is about whether or not precision in the natural happened by accident or whether it required the intervention of the Intelligent Designer aka Jehovah. If you want to start up a thread in which you can rant against Jehovah and blame him for the wrongdoing of independent agents aka humans, go ahead and do that. Be sure and feature as part of your OP that God had no right giving humans free will, with you being an exception, of course. You get to have free will and everybody else should be robotized. If you write anything else to me that does not address the questions in my OP, do not hold your breath waiting for any further responses from me. None will be forthcoming.
This thread is about whether or not precision in the natural happened by accident or whether it required the intervention of the Intelligent Designer aka Jehovah.You have provided no evidence the precision in nature required a designer. Show that and I'll discuss it with you. Even if you could prove the universe required an intelligent designer that would not prove the designer was Jehovah.
I believe you missed my post: If scientists proved that there was an intelligent creator, and it turned out to be a female who believed Islam was the true religion, would you accept their proof? I just want to find out if you're in this for the truth or for some not-so-obscure ulterior motive?ALTER2EGO -to- LAUSTEN: Stop trying to change the goal post. I am not interested in your speculations. My OP says nothing about which religion anyone is supposed to belong to. It simply presents the scientific evidence that precision could not have occurred in the natural world by accidental or by spontaneous means. Deal with that.
I believe you missed my post: If scientists proved that there was an intelligent creator, and it turned out to be a female who believed Islam was the true religion, would you accept their proof? I just want to find out if you're in this for the truth or for some not-so-obscure ulterior motive?ALTER2EGO -to- LAUSTEN: Stop trying to change the goal post. I am not interested in your speculations. My OP says nothing about which religion anyone is supposed to belong to. It simply presents the scientific evidence that precision could not have occurred in the natural world by accidental or by spontaneous means. Deal with that. Now you are being intellectually dishonest, as shown by the quote in my post above. You put in the "aka Jehovah" bit. Now you say your original post does not say anything about religion. While technically true, your later posts expose your agenda. Busted!
Even if you could prove the universe required an intelligent designer that would not prove the designer was Jehovah.His name is George. psik
Our very own George?]
While I don’t agree with everything George says he’d make a much better deity than Jehovah, but then so would most of us.
Are we derailing the thread? :lol:
Even if you could prove the universe required an intelligent designer that would not prove the designer was Jehovah.His name is George. psik Wow and I though it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster]
My favorite god CC! Now that’s a diety you can really sink your teeth into. Yum, the old Gothic god nudelauflauf!
Cap’t Jack
If you write anything else to me that does not address the questions in my OP, do not hold your breath waiting for any further responses from me. None will be forthcoming.
You apparently have no intention of debating any issue, especially not one where you have no rational response. You want to preach. You can’t preach to skeptics and you can’t set the parameters for debate with skeptics. We are an open free-thinking group and we have our own rules of debate, which are to allow any debate to take its natural course. There are plenty of groups where all members will agree with you and where you won’t get a negative response. I suggest you join one of them. Joining this one has been a waste of time for me and apparently for you as well.