Please Help Me Continue to Examine Why I Believe Jesus Rose Bodily from the Dead

He left it up to mankind to decide.
Then we are better than God.

@Lausten

Then we are better than God.
If he left it up to us the logical conclusion would be that he is better than us or the capacity for him to have done so wouldn't have been the case. Anyway, it's subjective, isn't it? If you had been a slave owner your opinion of slavery would be favorable, and if not then you certainly had that choice. That we currently, for the most part, ideally have a uniform disliking of slavery then the entire issue remains our choice.
Anyway, it’s subjective, isn’t it?
No. Slavery is objectively wrong.

Already having to excuse slavery. Pretty weak position.

if not then you certainly had that choice
Had what choice? It's called slavery because you aren't choosing it.

@Lausten

No. Slavery is objectively wrong.

Already having to excuse slavery. Pretty weak position.


If it were objectively wrong we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The slave owners and many of the slaves certainly wouldn’t have said it was objectively wrong. Also, I don’t excuse slavery I acknowledge it. I don’t condone it.

Had what choice? It’s called slavery because you aren’t choosing it.
The choice I was referring to was owning slaves. Also, in the Bible slaves often chose to be so due to, for example, debt or prisoners of war.

@Lausten

My statement regarding your uninformed opinion was an admittedly subtle one. You can’t have evaluated all of the evidence of the people in question so couldn’t realistically have made an informed opinion. You may have evaluated the evidence presented by Richard Carrier but he doesn’t speak for everyone. So I took your statement to be a matter of opinion, and it had to have been uninformed regarding the evidence in question.

The slave owners and many of the slaves certainly wouldn’t have said it was objectively wrong.
If that is how you determine what is right or wrong, then those words lose their meaning.
You can’t have evaluated all of the evidence of the people in question so couldn’t realistically have made an informed opinion.
Again, you define words out of existence. OTHJ is the most up to date and complete evaluation of the evidence for the historicity of Jesus. Refute that statement or refute anything in the book, but don't say that it's impossible to have an opinion without some standard that you made up, but won't even enumerate.

@Lausten

If that is how you determine what is right or wrong, then those words lose their meaning.
How so? If God isn't the source of determining what is objectively wrong or right, or if he has allegedly left it up to man then either way mankind i.e. society decides. At one time society decided it was right. Now they have decided it is wrong. So who is at fault?

You, I assume, as well as myself, thinks slavery is abhorrent. That’s subjective. Society at one time didn’t but now do. That, too, is subjective.

The term objectively wrong doesn’t sit well with me personally. By definition it is “(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.” And so, well, that in itself is problematic, especially in the discussion of societal mores, primitive or current.

@Lausten

Again, you define words out of existence. OTHJ is the most up to date and complete evaluation of the evidence for the historicity of Jesus. Refute that statement or refute anything in the book, but don’t say that it’s impossible to have an opinion without some standard that you made up, but won’t even enumerate.
Let's clarify some things. I responded to your statement "Except the evidence for all those people is very weak." I haven't commented on OTHJ and am not particularly interested in doing so unless you introduce a thread with excerpts from that work.

So, in conclusion, you have no real way of establishing the evidence of all those people having been very weak. I could be wrong and you could demonstrate that, but you haven’t so far. It’s your opinion. Uninformed. I don’t think Carrier will be of much help, but again, I could be wrong. Show me.

Society at one time didn’t but now do. That, too, is subjective.
Who is this society you speak of and how did they decide what is right? There are places where slavery is practiced now, that doesn't make it right. There were times it was practiced, that doesn't make it right then. Were the slaves part of this "society". I'm sure lots of them knew it was wrong.

We, either individually or as a group, decide what is right and wrong by getting better at deciding what is right and wrong.

It’s your opinion.
If you said God created man from dust and I said Darwin's theory says you are wrong, would you say that is just my opinion?

If I said man had landed on the moon, and that you could see the lunar lander with a telescope that you could buy yourself, would say that is just my opinion?

If I said there is snow on the ground in Duluth, MN and I can see it from my window, would you say that is just my opinion?

@Lausten

Who is this society you speak of and how did they decide what is right? There are places where slavery is practiced now, that doesn’t make it right. There were times it was practiced, that doesn’t make it right then. Were the slaves part of this “society”. I’m sure lots of them knew it was wrong.

We, either individually or as a group, decide what is right and wrong by getting better at deciding what is right and wrong.


I don’t know that you are fully comprehending what I mean by subjective. It is what you are describing, but you seem to suggest that one society’s morality trumps another. Your’s is right so therefore their’s is wrong. That seems illogical to me if they are all autonomous. Perhaps you are being ideologically possessed with the subject of slavery and the real argument is based upon a political / social frustration you have with the Bible in Western culture but that, too, seems illogical to me, because that specific cultural identity itself has wrestled with the issue of slavery and most recently have determined it to be an abhorrent practice. A conclusion we both agree on. So what is our argument?

Why would god allow slavery? I addressed that early on. He left it to us.

I don’t know that you are fully comprehending what I mean by subjective.
What you are describing is moral relativism, so I think it's you who has the comprehension problem.
That seems illogical to me
Then you should be able to use logic to determine right from wrong.
if they are all autonomous
They have the autonomy to be wrong. Autonomy doesn't make it right.

Don’t care what God thinks or what the Bible says about this.

@Lausten

If you said God created man from dust and I said Darwin’s theory says you are wrong, would you say that is just my opinion?
We could have a discussion based upon those sorts of generalized terms but for specific discussion and especially debate I try to be more careful with the way I use words. For example, which God? What is meant by dust? And I wouldn't say it was "just" your opinion, I would say the opinion of many, though even in that some clarification should be made regarding what exactly Darwin's theory is. Was it "just" his opinion that life was “originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one.” Does that fit in with what his own theory is in your opinion?
If I said man had landed on the moon, and that you could see the lunar lander with a telescope that you could buy yourself, would say that is just my opinion?
No, but let's not equate opinion as necessarily being right or wrong. Just because something is or isn't your opinion doesn't constitute fact. Fact which is often itself subjective. Most of what we know isn't much. I would say that it's my opinion we were created and I assume it is your opinion that we wasn't, but neither one of us knows for sure.
If I said there is snow on the ground in Duluth, MN and I can see it from my window, would you say that is just my opinion?
Yes. You can't see all of Duluth, MN from your window and aren't allowing for the possibility that the alleged precipitation doesn't necessarily encompass that specific area entirely.

You see what I did there?

@Lausten

What you are describing is moral relativism, so I think it’s you who has the comprehension problem.
Subjective defined: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

I don’t feel compelled to adhere to any philosophical paradigm, but if you want to refer to my position as stated here as moral relativism I suppose that would be fair enough, but I’m suggesting specifically that morality is subjective. So, where do we get the idea that slavery is “wrong?” As opposed to, say, for example, a debt based economy or fractional reserved banking? Democracy or Freedom? I don’t see how you could possibly argue the subjective nature of morality without citing some source which has determined it and your choices seem to be God, The Bible, or the society in which you currently reside.

Then you should be able to use logic to determine right from wrong.
According to whom?
Fact which is often itself subjective.
Why are you here? Not to have any productive dialog apparently.
Yes. You can’t see all of Duluth, MN from your window and aren’t allowing for the possibility that the alleged precipitation doesn’t necessarily encompass that specific area entirely.
Really? Is this funny to you?

@Lausten

Why are you here? Not to have any productive dialog apparently.
I thought we were having a productive dialog. If that is, to you, apparently not the case then why are you participating?
Really? Is this funny to you?
Not at all. Is it not true?
According to whom?
Logic, according to logic. Reason, according to reason. You can't get any more granular than that. If you try to argue that reason doesn't exist, then you are you using reason, so it exists. My choices are not limited to " God, The Bible, or the society in which you currently reside." I have the knowledge and wisdom of many societies at my fingertips and I have a mind that has been trained to think. I can think outside of those parameters.

Sure, I can’t prove I exist, or that I’m not being controlled by an evil demon, but I can logically determine that it’s extremely unlikely those are real problems. Even if they are, then all that wisdom and logic are useless, because they can’t disprove my existence or identify the evil demon, so I’m stuck with the capacity that I have, and that’s what I’m using.

I was really hoping you’d do better than trying out tired old hard solipsism on us David. Hope you can find something more worthwhile to discuss here.

Is it not true?
It's pedantic. I'm here to chase away discussions that are pedantic.

@Lausten

I was really hoping you’d do better than trying out tired old hard solipsism on us David.
Solipsism seems nonsensical to me.