Nazi’s and the Christians (Coffee required)

Nazi’s and the Christians
In America we have Christian movements. But the Christian political parties are non-existent; they work quietly inside of the Republican and Democratic Parties. That because our government made a deal with them. They are allowed to be tax exempt only if they do not run political parties. A little bit of that separation of State and religion.
In Germany the Christians or mainly Germany’s Roman Catholic population controlled the Center Party. The Protestants stayed away from the Center Party. And it was this battle for political power that opened the door for groups like the Nazi Party.
The Nazi’s were not a religious movement, just a political party; therefore the Center Party did not look at the Nazis as having any strength behind them.
The Nazis started out as a political movement, just like the Zionist today. Nothing got done in Germany unless it had the backing of the Christian coalition. It is still that way today in Germany. These political alliances go back to the beginning of the Nazi Party. In other words, if the Christian political parties did not want the Nazi Party to exist, they would have been gone.
After WWI , hyper inflation hit Germany. A lifetime’s retirement savings for a worker could only buy a cup or two of coffee. In a 10 month period the US Dollar went from 4 Marks to the Dollar to 4.2 billion Marks to the Dollar.
The greatest movement of wealth at that time in history was the money from the United States to Germany. The Dawes & Young Loans of 1924-30, over $2B went to Germany.
And not without strings attached.
Many items the US made Germany comply with to get the loans went against the churches and governments management ways of Germany. I’ll list a couple big ones.

  1. Germany had to implement communist reforms in the workplace in that the labor unions had to be managed by the workers and not the company.
  2. Overtime for men only, after 40 hours of work in a week, another communist idea.
  3. Germany had to outlaw slavery all together in Germany, against the churches thinking.
  4. Germany had to move the banking system to the private sector like in the United States.
  5. No citizen was bound to disclose his religious convictions to the government.
    Some of the money we loaned to the German Government went directly to the churches.
    And there were a few loans made directly to the German churches. For example;
    St. Petri Church, Bremen 1926
    Beuron Benedictine Monastery
    Protestant Church (Welfare Inst) 1926 $5M
    Roman Catholic Church in Bavaria 1926 $5M
    Roman Catholic Church Welfare Institution in Germany 1926 $6M
    In reading the conditions of the loans to the churches I was surprised that the loans were backed by the churches ability to tax the people. If needed to pay the bonds the churches had the ability to raise the taxes on the people under their tax authority by up to 10 percent of their income for just the payment on the bonds.
    How could this be?
    In Germany the Churches are allowed to employ civil servants and to levy taxes on its members and to directly collect the tax. In other words Germany is sharing its sovereignty with the Churches. Today two-thirds of Germany’s population pays the church tax. And today other groups are allowed to charge a tax. Like Jewish synagogues, the Salvation Army, the Latter Day Saints, and the German Humanist Association. These taxes are deducted against the Federal income tax. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, German Humanist charging a church tax.
    Point being that the churches and state was intertwined.
    Now back to the topic, the first power move by the German Government (the Nazi party and the Christian Churches) was to take back the control of the independent banking system the US required Germany to setup. If the Christian Churches did not want the Nazi Party to take the banking back, Hitler would of never had enough power to do it on their own and without the banking he could not have started WWII.
    History tells us that the Church Tax was use in the U.S., George Washington and others backed the tax. It was people like Thomas Jefferson that repelled the tax. Then other colonies followed, some took a long time to change.
    It is my option that the German Churches were afraid to oppose the Nazi Party for fear of losing its tax system. I think the churches always knew what was going on in Germany. They were to much involve in management and political issues not to know.
    And the number of Christians did not go down because of the Nazi Political Party, so most of the Nazi’s were most likely Christians.
    Point Being – Let’s keep the churches out of the political offices and elections in the U.S.
    Am I missing anything?

Well that’s a lot to consider. One thing that does ring true though is how what you’ve said ties into the general feeling in the US at the time that we should stay out of WW2. I’ve always thought, seeing as how rampant anti-Semitism was in the US, especially given how Christian the country was back then, I always thought citizens wanted to stay out because they secretly agreed with Hitler and the Nazi ideology. I mean there’s a reason Nazism and Fascism are refered to as “right wing” ideologies.

One of my pet peeves is the tax exemptions for charities, churches, etc. My town seems to have a church on every corner - probably at least 10 times as much capacity as we need.

One of my pet peeves is the tax exemptions for charities, churches, etc. My town seems to have a church on every corner - probably at least 10 times as much capacity as we need.
Our tax system would be much simpler an fairer if there were no tax exemptions for anyone. Everyone, individuals and businesses would pay a percentage of their income, earned and unearned, on an individual basis with no exemptions allowed for any reason. The majority of people would wind up paying less because the wealthy and connected would be unable to find loopholes and avoid paying their fair share. Problem is nobody in Congress or the White House wants it to be fair. They all want to be able to give themselves and their cronies an advantage. So we wind up with a royal mess that gets more and more complicated and unfair to most people--especially the ones who struggle to make ends meet. It seems that politicians have figured out a perfect way to get and maintain an advantage for the rich and powerful: make it as complicated as possible so no one knows who is paying what and there are plenty of loopholes for the well connected.
Problem is nobody in Congress or the White House wants it to be fair.
The problem is that congresscritters and senators on both sides of the aisle are fairly wealthy themselves and they also, without exception, owe their positions to various special interests which financed their elections with massive donations. With the exception of a few idealists (And they do exist) they're not about to vote for any sort of tax system where they screw themselves over.

Some items I think that would make life easier and fairer.

  1. Flat Tax System.
  2. No Fault Insurance.
  3. Phonic Alphabet.
  4. Metric System.
  5. Full disclosures from our government or all spending.
  6. No secret court system.
  7. No secret contracts by the government.

I completely agree with your proposal, Lois - A flat tax with absolutely no deductions, however, I would exempt the first, say, $50,000 of earnings as that required for a minimum adequate life. The taxable amount would include all income including wages, interest, dividends, profits, hedge fund gimmicks, inheritances, over-seas income, etc.
Occam

Our tax system would be much simpler an fairer if there were no tax exemptions for anyone.
Taxes avoidance are the causes of so many problems. In fact, I recently came across this interesting article by an economist working in the UN which has some very shocking facts http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sachs/time-to-end-the-tax-haven_b_3241900.html

I was surprised to learn that most of the old empires were not conquered by war but fell from over taxation.

I was surprised to learn that most of the old empires were not conquered by war but fell from over taxation.
Our taxes here in America are so much lower than much of the rest of the world. Most of Europe have taxation rates MUCH higher than ours. They seem to be doing just fine.

Yes, they are in a fine recession, and that of course gives them the time for austerity measures demonstrations.

Our taxes here in America are so much lower than much of the rest of the world. Most of Europe have taxation rates MUCH higher than ours. They seem to be doing just fine.
Like Greece and Spain? Oh...waitaminute....they're NOT doing fine.

The problem isn’t high taxation, it’s where the money goes. Predators in most of the old empires figured out how to tax the citizens then drain the treasuries, or how to tax the average citizens while giving those at the top a free ride. We are seeing both of these beginning here. We have many subsidies and tax reliefs to large companies and exemptions for those at the higher end of income earning.
If we got rid of those and put the money into public education, transportation, health care, etc. our country could function more efficiently and effectively.
In addition if we set decent minimum wages, we’d have a much more functional consumer market which would increase purchasing and lead to more hiring to produce those items. In other words, no recession and a growing, not shrinking, middle class.
Occam

Our taxes here in America are so much lower than much of the rest of the world. Most of Europe have taxation rates MUCH higher than ours. They seem to be doing just fine.
Like Greece and Spain? Oh...waitaminute....they're NOT doing fine.
And their taxation rates are abysmal. So is their collection. Lois
Yes, they are in a fine recession, and that of course gives them the time for austerity measures demonstrations.
Their recession, just like ours, was by design. See Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein.

Much of the first part of your post describes the consequences of nations who wish to solve their problems through war. Either they succeed, or they pay war reparations
which are inherited by their descendants. As well as post war Germany, the world was in the grips of financial trouble also, much of it due to paying back expenses of fighting a rogue nation in WW1. So yes it experienced an added burden.
The solution as always is to collectively nip temptation in the bud, and say “this is madness!”, then resort to diplomatic means. It is ludicrous to think that a world would not come to the plight of a nation in trouble, if not immediately, later. All nations are confined on this globe, and whatever one nation or collection of them will feel, we are all dependent and affected by the ills that plague other nations. Their is a recognized ingrained law within our world that extends a helping hand.
When more instruments of destruction are made, proportionally the more society feels it is the means to the end, and as well, the less diplomacy is seen as a solution.
So in Germany’s case, it already agreed that the gamble was worth it. So it is receiving one of the consequences of it’s decisions. It should be glad that it receives one
of the options it saw as worth it.
Scape goats abound, and using Christianity as a cause is also ludicrous. There are more stories of Catholic heroes than there are of negative stories.

Just some thoughts that the bonds bring up.
There are complete sections of the puzzle missing as far the churches involvement with the Jewish section and the Concentration Camps and how they came about.
The above information tells us that the Churches had taxing authority and could hire and manage government workers.
The Churches were battling for taxing areas. The Jewish wanted to be able to also tax the people. For that to happen, the existing churches would have to lose taxing area and income. Plus allow the Jewish churches into the structure of government.
What exactly was the Churches function in the government of Germany?
The Churches was the Warfare Department, the Education Department, the Housing Department plus many other departments, basically anything to do with managing and feeding the people.
As long as the Nazi’s could keep the people working, then the Churches got taxes. The one thing the Nazi’s did for Germany was to take a highly unemployed country and get everyone back to work. It must have made a good working relationship between the Churches and Nazi’s. Remember the Churches were and had been the real political power of Germany for years and was still the political power over the Nazi’s for many years after Hitler took power.
A big problem that Germany had, was Germany did not grow enough food to feed the people. For years they bought food from neighboring countries. Germany was rich and had plenty of money and the system was working quite well until WWI started.
The question comes up as to who wanted the Concentration Camps? The Nazi’s thoughts were well known for years. They wanted the Jews to leave the country and had many programs to make them want to leave.
Where were the Churches on this thinking? The Churches were though out Europe, not just in Germany, Moving the Jews would have just created problems in other areas of Europe. The Churches did help a lot of them move to England. Then England shut the doors. Then the churches help them move to America. But there was not a major move to help the Jews settle in Europe.
I do not want a conspiracy theory. But does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Spence Post #15
So in Germany’s case, it already agreed that the gamble was worth it. So it is receiving one of the consequences of it’s decisions. It should be glad that it receives one of the options it saw as worth it.
I’m not sure which options you are referring to?
Scape goats abound, and using Christianity as a cause is also ludicrous. There are more stories of Catholic heroes than there are of negative stories.
Name one, using the policies and actions of the Churches management.

LilySmith
I believe you have an incorrect view of history and the relationship of the Nazis and the Christian churches. The first target of the Nazis, who were predominately Pagan and atheist, was the Christian Churches.
My understanding is that Germany was controlled by the Christian Political Party before Hitler and during most of Hitler’s power and then after Hitler and the Nazis was gone. They are still the big controlling power in Germany today.
I find it hard to believe that a nation of Christians all the sudden became Pagan and atheist and then went back to being Christians again.
I find it more likely that the Christian Political Party being a tax authority and part of government became hated after the period of hyper inflation and the Christians voted in the Nazis not out of like for the Nazis but out of dislike for the Christians in power at the time.
7 June 1941-it is identified as Document Number D-75
This date is interesting because the people in control of Germany realized in December 1941 that the war was lost. The movement of funds, including the bonds that I am talking about all changed value and the Nazis were in full force of moving funds and assets out of Germany.
‘More and more must the people be separated from the churches and their organizations and pastors … Not until this has happened does the State leadership have influence on the individual citizens.’
Yes, I agree, the pendulum of public support was now swinging back to the Christian Political Party and the Nazis were trying to stop or at least slow this movement.
The Nazi conspirators early realized that the influence of the Christian churches in Germany was an obstacle to their complete domination of the German people and contrary to their master race dogma.
“The Nazi conspirators". The Nazis knew all along that the Christian Political Party was the big force of Germany and that they needed to close the Christian Political Party down if they were going to ever have complete control of Germany. That was never any secret. The Christian Political Party controlled so many government functions that it took some time for the Nazis to develop the departments to control housing and education of the people.
‘No human being would know anything of Christianity if it had not been drilled into him in his childhood by his pastors. The so-called “dear God" in no wise gives knowledge of His existence to young people in advance, but in an astonishing manner, in spite of His omnipotence, leaves this to the efforts of the pastors. If, therefore, in the future our youth learns nothing more of this Christianity, whose doctrines are far below ours, Christianity will disappear by itself.’"
The Germans had the best colleges and were some of the best educated people on earth at the time. The Germans wanted to move the education system from the churches to state schools so more people could be better educated. The Christian school system was not standardized and some were good and some were bad.
The first to be sent to concentration camps were the Christian pastors and priests who would not pervert the teachings of Christianity to conform to Nazi ideology. Tax revenues were the last thing on their minds. Christian clergy were fighting for their lives.
In 1933 the church and Nazis had a signed agreement. The church was to stay out of politics and it of course did not. In 1938 the concentration camps became a holding place for people with “asocial behavior". The Nazis stared WWII in 1939.
Christian pastors were influential leaders of the community and very political motivated.
Germany was a country of tens of thousands of small villages run by the pastors. And yes the Nazis did arrest thousands of pastors.
The first concentration camps were not set up for the Christian pastors; they were setup for Communists and Social Democrats who had been condemned in a court of law. Pastors were then sent to concentration camps as known political opponents without going through the court of law.
One has to ask himself, the German people were smart and loved music and theater, created the movie industry, and were very good poets and writers and well liked people by the tourist and visitors to Germany. Why all the sudden under the Christian Political Party did the country fall into complete ruin. Why did the Christians vote in the Nazi Party over the Christian Political Party? Where were all these anti-war Pastors in WWI when the Christian Political Party was ruling the country?
The Atheists are only 2% of the world population today. Are you saying that in Germany there was a very large percentage of Atheists who were in the Nazi party and ran the country? I think you had a lot of Christians with Atheists viewpoints and a lot of people who hated the Church and did not trust the Church.
Now with all that said where was the organized church? Yes a lot of Pastors, but if the Nazis wanted to close down the church would they not just imprison the head of the church? Where was the organized church?
History is written on Newspaper records. Then they have to be rewritten several times over the years. The Churches and governments feel that their records need to be hidden from the public.

There were many political parties in Germany, but none remained in power when the Nazis took over. There was no Christian tax authority. You misunderstand the church tax which many European countries have. When a Christian registered with the government as being either Catholic or Protestant, the government charged him a tax. The churches had no authority to tax Germans. It was the church members who were being taxed by the government. Today in Germany Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax, worth an extra 8-9% of their income tax bill.
I said the Nazis were Pagan and atheist, and they were. Their goal was to destroy any Christian influence and replace it with a new religion based on the paganism of the past and racial superiority.
The Nazi party in Germany never received more than 33% of the vote. Hitler never won an election. Hitler was appointed Chancellor by then President Paul von Hindenburg. After the adoption of the Enabling Act of 1933 and after abusing his position as Chancellor, Hitler began to exercise dictatorial powers through legal means.
I’m afraid you have sadly misunderstood the Nuremberg Trial evidence. The Nazis were not fighting any so called “Christian Political Party.” They had ceased power and were seeking to rule Germany completely. They had three targets they sought to destroy–the Christian Churches, the Unions and the Jews.
You wrote: “In 1933 the church and Nazis had a signed agreement. The church was to stay out of politics and it of course did not. In 1938 the concentration camps became a holding place for people with “asocial behavior”. The Nazis stared WWII in 1939."
In 1933 a treaty was signed between the Vatican and Germany. It’s called a Concordat, which is a treaty between the Catholic Church and a state. The Concordat of 1933 was for the purpose of guranteeing Roman Catholics their rights in the then Weimar Republic. It was signed on 20 July 1933 by Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) and Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen on behalf of Pope Pius XI and President Paul von Hindenburg of Germany. It was a treaty the Nazis never honored. There was no agreement between the Nazis and any German church.
As the first targets of the Nazis, the Christian pastors and priests were among the first sent to concentration camps. Once in the camps they were used as pawns to control any opposition from the Vatican. If the Vatican spoke out against the Nazis, their priests and other Christians in the camps would suffer. This is a fact and has been testified to many times by Christians and Jews who were there. You can look it up.
The Nuremberg Trials were a series of military tribunals conducted by the Allied forces of World War II for the prosecution of the leadership of Nazi Germany. They presented evidence of the inner workings of the Nazis and their goals. They have proven through evidence presented that one of the first targets of the Nazis were the Christian Churches. There were 24 Nazis on trial for their lives. Twelve were given the death penalty, others imprisoned up to life, a few acquitted. This is not history “written on Newspaper records.” This is not history that can be rewritten. This is not hidden from the public. It is there for everyone to see and learn what the Nazis did and who they targeted. Yale University offers the record of these trial online if you want to know the truth of what happened.