My Hedonistic Logical Argument

1.) Perceiving something to be of good value, worth, joy, beauty, inspiration, love, a heavenly experience, and happiness to you can only be an experience for you that has a positive tone. In short, having good value and worth, along with joy, beauty, and happiness in your life is always a positive experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it.
2.) Perceiving something to be of bad value, torment, suffering, a hellish experience, and misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a negative tone. In short, having bad value, along with suffering, misery, and torment in your life is always a negative experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it.
3.) Perceiving something to be of neither good value, worth, bad value, joy, beauty, happiness, suffering, torment, or misery to you can only be an experience for you that has a neutral (mechanistic) tone. In short, having neither good value, worth, nor bad value, along with having no suffering, a hellish experience, a heavenly experience, misery, torment, happiness, or beauty in your life is always a neutral experience (state of mind) no matter how you look at it.
4.) Our good moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess the positive tone, our bad moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess the negative tone, and a non feeling experience can only possess a neutral (mechanistic) tone. A non feeling experience actually does possess a positive and negative tone. However, it would be a positive and negative tone that only meets a biological machine’s standard. It would be nothing more than a mechanistic positive and negative tone that does not meet the human standard. It would be no different than having a positive and negative charge on a battery versus the positive and negative qualities of our human experience.
Conclusion: Our good moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives a humanistic quality of good value, worth, joy, beauty, a heavenly experience, and happiness, our bad moods/feelings are the only things that can give our lives bad value, suffering, misery, agony, a hellish experience, and torment, while it is only experiencing neither our good or bad moods/feelings that can bring our lives no value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, heavenly experience, hellish experience, happiness, love, or misery.
People with a brain defect, brain damage, or low feel-good neurotransmitters due to either drug use, depression, and/or anhedonia are only having positive thoughts that their lives still have good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to them without their good moods/feelings. But their quality of experience possesses no positive tone to give any real perception of good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness to their lives. In other words, they would not be able to actually see the good value, worth, joy, beauty, and happiness in themselves, others around them, and in their lives.
You might as well consider the value and joy to be nothing more than terms (words/phrases) in a depressed/anhedonic person’s life. Depressed/anhedonic people are only fooling and deluding themselves through these positive terms as well as through positive gestures, acts, and tones of voice in thinking their lives have real good value and worth to them. But, again, their actual experience possesses no positive quality. They might have a little bit of good moods/feelings to some small degree, but that would only offer them a small quality of good value/worth perceived in their lives.
Additional delusional factors include conditioning, strength of character, and empathy towards other human beings which would certainly delude an individual into thinking that helping out others, making the best of life, etc. during miserable times would give real good value, worth, and joy to a person’s life with no need for any good moods/feelings.
Lastly, to summarize my logical argument, a perceptual experience of good value, worth, joy, beauty, bad value, suffering, torment, and misery without their respective moods/feelings possesses no quality of experience. It is only through feeling good and feeling bad that offers our lives a quality of perceptual experience.
Our good moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess a quality to them that give our lives a real perceived quality of good value/worth while our bad moods/feelings are the only experiences that possess a quality to them that give our lives a real perceived quality of bad value. Experiencing no good or bad moods/feelings gives our lives no perceived quality (experience) of good value, bad value, worth, joy, beauty, suffering, or misery.
When I am traumatized due to some horrible traumatic event in my life, I lose all my good moods/feelings and I have none whatsoever. My life possesses no real perceived quality of good value/worth even despite getting help and wanting to feel better. So, even me getting help did not give my life any real perceived quality of good value/worth. That is why I conclude that it is only how we feel that gives our lives a real perceived quality of good and bad value. I just don’t agree with this non feeling version of value that society, friends, and family advocate. There is just no way I could ever live the entirety of my life and see any good value/worth living like this without my good moods/feelings.

This is Mozart Link. He goes by other names. He has been banned from many forums. He will never engage in meaningful discussion

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. There are two levels of hedonism, and they are almost polar opposites to each other. Because of that, much misunderstanding has prevailed down the ages. The lower hedonism is of the body, and the higher hedonism is of the soul. They both speak the same language: Eat, drink, be merry. They both propound the same philosophy of life: Live in the moment, don’t think of the morrow. They both want that one should not be worried about the past, should not be concerned about the future. This moment is enough unto itself. Their language is the same, their proposal is the same, yet they are diametrically opposite.

. To the first hedonism – the material, the physical, the outer hedonism – belong the philosophies of Charvaka in India and Epicurus in Greece. To the second philosophy, the spiritual hedonism, belong all the great Masters: Buddha, Krishna, Christ, Zarathustra. Where do they differ? Where do they go diametrically opposite?

. If you live only as a physical being, then you will remain unaware of the non-physical dimension that is continuously penetrating you. Then you will know only the visible, and the invisible will remain unknown to you. And the invisible is far bigger, far more essential. The visible is just a covering, the visible is just a shell around the invisible. It is there to protect the invisible. The body is the shrine of the soul. If you live only in the body, and you only take care of the body and the physical sensations dominate you, you will never become aware of the non-physical dimension – the divine dimension. If you are utterly lost in the body – as you will be if you think ’Eat, drink and be merry’ is the goal – then you will live at the very superficial level.

. It is as if you have been given the Bible and you go on looking at the cover, and you start worshipping the cover and you never open the book, and you never go inside and you never see what is there. The cover can be beautiful – it can be leather bound, printed in gold, maybe diamonds are studded on top of it; it can be beautiful, it can be very precious – but still it is nothing compared to that which is inside the book.

. Your body is only a cover. It is beautiful, it is precious, but it is carrying something far more precious in it. The man who thinks of ’Eat, drink and be merry’ in the physical sense is a man who receives a letter and worships the envelope. and forgets the message. The message is important. What a message you are carrying inside you! What a destiny you are carrying inside you!

. The second level hedonism is not against the body, it is for the soul. It also lives in the moment, but when the first hedonist is eating, he is only. concerned with the food. When the second hedonist is eating, he is more concerned with the awareness of the taste of the food. That is where they differ. When the first hedonist has gone for a walk, he looks around – the trees, the birds, the people, the dewdrops, the morning sun – but he does not look at WHO is looking at all these things. When the second hedonist goes for a morning walk, he enjoys the birds, the trees, the people, the sun, the sky, but he also goes on enjoying the one who is enjoying it all. He remains aware.

. The first hedonist lives an unconscious life, the second hedonist lives a very very conscious life. The second hedonist gets all that the first is getting… plus. The first hedonist gets only the bodily sensations, and he goes on missing the REAL life. Because the first hedonist lives in the body, there are people who are against the first hedonist and they think they are spiritual. They are not. That’s a logical fallacy. Because the first goes on living in the body, there are people who Logically think ’We have to go against the body, then only can we enter into the second realm of our being, then only can we attain to happiness, to heaven, to bliss. Because the first is missing – and the first is missing because he is too much obsessed with the body – the second, this so-called spiritualist, becomes obsessed AGAINST the body. This is not a real spiritualist.

. The real spiritualist is a hedonist. Let me repeat it: He is not against the body, he is for the soul. So now there are three kinds of people: the ordinary hedonist who lives in the body, the REAL hedonist who lives in the soul. And naturally lives in the body too, and between these two is the spiritualist, the so-called spiritualist, the ascetic who fights with the body, who destroys the body, who is against the body, who tortures the body. And he thinks that in torturing the body he will attain to the soul; he cannot.

. The first goes on missing, but the second – the false spiritualist – misses even more. So if you have a choice, then I will say it is better to be a physical hedonist than to be an anti-physical spiritualist, because at least you will be enjoying the body; the physical part of God will remain available to you. To the spiritualist, even that is not available. He is completely blind.

. But if you really want to enjoy life, then you have to choose the second kind of hedonism, the spiritual hedonism, the divine hedonism. The second is already available to the first if he starts becoming a little alert. It is not available to the false spiritualist. He is closed to both kinds of hedonisms.

. The physical hedonist can rise to the higher hedonism because he has to grow in the same way but deeper. He has to dig a little deeper into his being. So if you are to choose between Epicurus and Mahatma Gandhi, choose Epicurus. But if you have to choose between Epicurus and Buddha, Jesus, then choose Jesus or Buddha. Never become a so-called saint. He falls from grace. He misses the body, how can he attain to the soul? The body has to be used as a stepping-stone. The body has to become a staircase, it has to become a boat for the other shore. Use the body.

May I ask if you wrote that, or are these someone else’s words?

Usually I don’t read over-long posts that ramble (though I’m guilty of writing some myself), but you got me. I did start skimming towards the end because you repeat yourself. (You know they say, for ever word you can cut out you gain a reader). :wink:

Also, I wouldn’t use your ‘framing,’ but when I boil those words to their essence, I see where you’re coming from. I would disagree with you that, it’s a matter of dynamic balance and not one over the other.

The one over the other?

Broadly speaking like this, but I would suggest, “live in the moment fully aware of tomorrow” and that your today will direct where you’re at tomorrow.

What is this invisible? The many layers within biology and matter that we are mostly unaware of? That is the physical insides of us and our biosphere?
How about adding an awareness of history, that is evolution. A visceral awareness of being a creature with hundreds of millions of years worth of development within my being. “I am an element in the flow of creation”. That sort of thing.
The invisible attachments of feelings and emotions to our mothers, children, family, loved ones, friends, humanity in general?
The invisible of those various voices alway catching away at you, describing what they are seeing and thinking?

the visible is just a shell” I have a real problem with.

We are real beings, the product of real physical biological processes unfolding over countless generations. There is nothing imaginary about us, and the fact that we die and disappear doesn’t change the fact that we were real physical fact, during our living days.

Our consciousness and souls are the inside reflection and energy of our physical being’s experience.

Sounds to me like “mindful living”

I think we need some definitions. We have our “conscious” and our “subconscious”
I would classify both of those under the heading of spirit, or “Human Mindscape” -
Then we our body, the biological creature that is us.
Within that body we have all sort of things happening, including hormones, at times raging hormones, and they have a direct impact upon the mind of the body.

What is the mind. From an evolutionary biological standpoint, your mind is the inside reflection of your body, its physical functions, its senses and it navigating its physical environment.

The difference between our body and our mind, is the same difference that exists between lightening and thunder.

I dare say I kinda resemble that remark. Although, not so comfortable with the “false spiritualist” by nature we’re all spiritualists - I think it’s more a question of intellectual honesty, personal integrity, good faith curiosity - as opposed to the self-serving mindscape that bends everything according to his convenience.
What you’re calling a “false” spiritualist, I could just as easily call a false human, as opposed to a person with integrity.

I keep hitting reply by accident. Sorry. One last quote.

Part of this message I can totally relate to and it’s served me well.

However, don’t dismiss our bodies so glibly. We are creatures of this planet Earth and her evolution. We share the same fate as other creatures. We’ve achieved unheard of intellectual abilities, but we are shackled within the same inevitable mortality.

If our bodies are nothing more than “stepping stones,” it is Evolution’s stepping stones. Totally removed from who you are right now for your brief dance with life, across Earth’s stage.