Back when I used to argue with fundamentalists online, I asked one which interpretation of the Bible they had. They said they didn’t have an interpretation, they had the King James Version.
You should have asked which version of the King James Bible… 
The Modern English Version (MEV) is an English translation of the Bible begun in 2005 and completed in 2014 . The work was edited by James F. Linzey, and is an update of the King James Version (KJV), re-translated from the Masoretic Text and the Textus Receptus.
Modern English Version - Wikipedia
Good one! I’ve never thought about that one before and you’re absolutely right about that.
That happens to be the worst translation of all, according to the religious professors I studied under.
You know, I might have said “translation”. She didn’t seem to understand that there was an original language of the writers, and it had gone through translations and changes.
Yes, the Old Testament was originally in Hebrew and the New Testament was in Greek. However, if King James didn’t like how his translators translated it, he had them write it to say what he wanted, which isn’t actually translating.
Yes, the Old Testament was originally in Hebrew and the New Testament was in Greek. However, if King James didn’t like how his translators translated it, he had them write it to say what he wanted, which isn’t actually translating.
Hey, let me see if I’m doing something right… I’ll let you all know a little more about me.
I was born in a Christian home, most of my relatives subscribed to different brands of faith, so I learned different ways of believing in Jesus. I knew something was wrong, so from early teens I started to read the Bible from cover to cover in different versions and languages that I spoke to find out the reason of so much dissension. When I came to America at age 20, I already was aware what the Bible say on many issues. I began taking some evening courses at a Bible Institute before enrolling full time. I was asking too many questions in class that kept sending me to the principal’s office. I was allowed to continue attending class but only as an auditor, still, over 50 years ago I become an ordained Bible minister preaching for free in fundamentalist churches and everywhere I travelled the world on business too. I was always careful hiding from public knowledge Bible stories detrimental to Christianity. Even the original manuscript of the Bible lends itself to different translations and interpretations in each brand of faith each claiming to be the truest one. So, no one can even guess which one is the right one. God is not known to be easily coaching anyone to the truth.
Deuteronomy 28:28 (NIV) - The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness, and CONFUSION OF MIND.
Jeremiah 4:10 (NIV) - Then I said, “Ah, Sovereign LORD, HOW COMPLETELY YOU HAVE DECEIVED THIS PEOPLE and Jerusalem by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our throats.”
The Prophet Jeremiah not me says that God is a first-class deceiver. This is the same God promising the Jews, “I will never leave you nor forsake you,” still Adolf Hitler holocaust six million of them without a problem. Today Germany is one of the most advanced and richest nations in the world.
Ezekiel 14:9 (KJV) - And IF THE PROPHET BE DECEIVED when he hath spoken a thing, I THE LORD HAVE DECEIVED THAT PROPHET…
When a preacher declares that God can reverse the result of political elections, some Christians are still willing to kill and die supporting what the clergy makes them believe. I am not sure if CFI would feel comfortable with this kind of revelations from the Bible, I’m getting near the end of my trail to see what’s coming next…
Is this the resume of a benign agency? If this was written in support of “natural selection” no one would argue, because that is in fact how nature selects for survivability.
But if I, as atheist, can imagine a benign all-powerful creator agency , I can think of a more gentle character than what is represented in scripture.
Just as Santa Claus does not need to exist, but keeps our children happy.
Fact is that God didn’t write any of these truths or lies because it doesn’t exist in any form resembling humans. God needs not exist at all.
If the concept is to teach social behavior with all other living organisms, we better concentrate on what science has to tell us.
So far, religions have been the greatest cause of wars, death, and misery! These are indisputable facts.
The rules are in FAQ, in the menu in the upper right. There is nothing there about what sources you can use, or what you believe. What is there is how you present your arguments and how you respond to others. I can’t really tell what your point is, but let’s say someone doesn’t accept your argument because it is based on scripture. That’s completely valid. You can still keep your belief, and try to make your point, but keep your words on the point you are making, not the underlying emotions or motivations of the people you are talking to.
That’s nice. I’m not sure if you realize you stumbled into a humanist forum and not a Xian. I’m sure if you did a search you could find a Xian forum you’d like far better than this humanist one. You might even find one two doors down and on the left.
I am not here to promote religion but to share my life experience. I did not choose my place of birth, so I grew up easily believing in a loving creator God. Science did not come first in my mind to explain the origin of anything after “believing” that God can do anything without a hustle. The promise of landing in a fairy Heaven after dying is what makes religion so attractive too. Not all religions are the same. The Judeo-Christian God appeared in the Middle East and easily expanded throughout the world in countless versions, only Islam does not allow any change to its original form as revealed to the prophet Muhammed because God or rather Allah created man perfect without a need to be “born again.” Since the 11th century, Mujaddid Al-Ghazali ruled that any science not coming out of the Quran is of the Devil, that is why Muslims do not fly in outer space without a Mullah’s permission. Inquiring this kind of issues would expand everybody’s knowledge and awareness about each other. Christians would also know from a rational perspective how God improves his performance as he goes in the Bible stories.
2Thesalonians 2:11 (KJV) - And for this cause God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should BELIEVE A LIE: (According to the Bible God not the Devil made science to be a lie)
1Timothy 6:20 (KJV) - O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, AVOIDING PROFANE AND VAIN BABBLINGS, and oppositions of SCIENCE FALSELY SO CALLED : (Rational science requires evidence to prove anything while faith banks on gullibility. Christians claiming that this universe is older than 6,000 years would adhere to “profane and vain babblings and oppositions of science falsely so called.” Jesus instructs wannabe members of the clergy to be shrewd as snakes regardless of any scientific or rational knowledge)
2Peter 3:12-13 (NIV) - That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where RIGHTEOUSNESS DWELLS. (Today’s Heaven is unsafe to dwell. Deceit is justified in the Bible stories when used to promote Christianity. Christians are not like religious Jews working on concrete facts to “inherit” a barren strip of Holy Land after killing its original dwellers. Jesus promised an invisible mansion in downtown Heaven for Christians)
Hebrews 11:1 (NIV) - “Now FAITH is the substance of things HOPED FOR, THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN” (Hard evidence defeats the purpose of faith)
Hebrews 13:17 (KJV) - (Paul says) Obey them that have the rule over you and SUBMIT YOURSELVES: for they watch for your souls, AS THEY THAT MUST GIVE ACCOUNT, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (Christians in each brand of faith must obey the clergy to enjoy peace of mind; very few read the Bible to know what it says)
Romans 3:5-8 (KJV) - If MY FALSEHOOD enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner? (Paul is openly claiming the right to his stories because it enhances God’s truthfulness and glory helping the clergy rake in plenty of money. Some Christians are willing to kill and die for their faith. Israel was never a significant nation in history to stand on its own as an example of God’s powerful help. The clergy fully supports Paul’s indiscretion white lying and trickiness in the promotion of Christianity)
2Corinthians 12:16 (KJV) - Be that as it may, I have not been a burden. Yet, CRAFTY FELLOW that I am, I caught you by TRICKERY!
Paul is an open example for the clergy to copy. The Bible shows his shrewdness organizing Christianity and honestly bragging about it soon after Jesus instructed the clergy to be “shrewd as snakes.” I was in the places you sent me, but they called me “blasphemer”…
But if I, as atheist, can imagine a benign all-powerful creator agency , I can think of a more gentle character than what is represented in scripture.
Just as Santa Claus does not need to exist, but keeps our children happy.
You do not seem to be fully informed… God sure beats Santa Claus making some people really happy, not all Christians are aware because they do not read the Bible.
Psalm 78:65 (KJV) - Then the LORD awoke as from sleep, as a warrior wakes from the STUPOR OF WINE. (Christians should know God’s character traits to worship him day and night forever in Heaven)
Zechariah 9:17 (KJV) - For how GREAT IS HIS GOODNESS, and how GREAT IS HIS BEAUTY! CORN shall make the young men cheerful, AND NEW WINE the maids (Girls are welcome to join young men drinking good wine. God cannot resist rewarding anyone celebrating his great beauty and goodness with plenty of strong drinks. Corn grain by itself does not make anyone cheerful until the grain is properly fermented)
Luke 12:19-20 (NIV) - And I’ll say to myself, "You have plenty of grain (To make fermented drink) laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." But God said to him, ‘YOU FOOL! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ (Jesus sneers at people for their mistakes, especially after fermenting strong liquor without thinking who would drink it if they were to die that night)
Proverbs 31:6-7 (NIV) - Give BEER to those who are perishing, WINE to those who are in anguish; LET THEM DRINK AND FORGET THEIR POVERTY and remember their misery no more (King Solomon is telling depressed people to go to a bar to drink plenty of beer and wine, not until they are impaired to drive but until they lose their memory and cannot remember what drove them to drink. There is only so much that God can do, alcohol does the rest)
2Kings 6:26-29 (NIV) - As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried to him, “Help me, my lord, the king!” The king replied, "If the LORD does not help you, where can I get help for you? …From the WINEPRESS?" (That is probably what the woman had in mind)
1Corinthians 9:4 (NIV) - HAVE WE NOT POWER to eat and TO DRINK? (Yes, but the secular authorities today do not allow to drink and drive regardless of any “religious right”)
1Corinthians 8:9 (NLT) - But you must be careful so that your FREEDOM does not cause others with a weaker conscience to stumble. (Not all Christians drink, so Christians strong in the faith must be careful not to destroy weaker believers unaware of what is going on in the closet)
The atheists I know are all very familiar with the bible. In fact atheists are usually much better informed about the bible than religious people.
Of course they would. But if you think that being “shrewd as snakes” is a badge of honor then you are looking at this from a skewed perspective, imho.
God is a figment of human imagination. The Bible is no more sophisticated than Aesop’s Fables, which are full of stories about morality.
As I said, the bible contains some useful moral lessons, but that does not mean that the authors knew anything about the history of the physical universe.
Why do you cherry-pick only the nice little tidbits uttered by anonymous persons and ignore the harsh truths supposedly uttered by God himself?
Behold they have become like us. Therefore I shall confound their language!..??? What an utterly cruel thing to do. It prevents people from being able to communicate. I cannot think of anything worse.
btw. I seldom drink alcoholic beverages and never to forget the cause of my sadness. In that respect, I identify with Buddha’s teachings of acceptance.
Nooooo… this is not wisdom. This hubris.
One thing to remember is that all religions are exclusive of all other religions and claim ultimate truth and irreducible complexity.
None can be supported with any kind of proof. The entire spiritual world is “IMAGINARY”!
Quantum is truly mysterious, but it can be proved and that makes all the difference.
So why are you here? To attempt to convert people? I don’t think you’ll have a very enjoyable time here if that is the case.
So why are you here? To attempt to convert people? I don’t think you’ll have a very enjoyable time here if that is the case.
15h
Don’t panic, I know religion is very catchy, I’m not here to convert anybody to anything, you are beautiful as you are, we can all improve our image. I’m the one that needs to adjust my vocabulary to this new environment. I’m sensing that if I side with a religious person’s view for the sake of a rational argument it may be offensive to some atheists. Some people visiting this site may be Xtians. You probably know more of what’s written in the Bible than most Xtians do to know that Christianity was firmly established by the apostle Paul acting “shrewdly as a snake catching everybody with trickery,” something that the clergy still does today in politics and in all brands of their faith. Living in a religious country is a matter of concern, free information and inquiry is essential to survive. What people do is another issue. In Christianity, “Atheist” is a dirty word, so I can see why you prefer to use “Xtian.”
[quote=“KeemoSabe, post:34, topic:9009”]
I’m sensing that if I side with a religious person’s view for the sake of a rational argument it may be offensive to some atheists.
Not offensive, challenging.
Some people visiting this site may be Xtians.
Many religious people come to visit and they are welcome to participate in all discussions, until they try to proselytize. Then reasonable people will correct any errant statements. No offense intended. Just clarity.
We might disagree or point out errors in logic. That’s not “being offended”
Yes, some maybe.
X in Xian is part of the Chi Rho. The X is symbolism for Christ, not meant to be insulting. It’s nothing more than shorthand. I do not know why more Xians do not know this. Then again, very few study any Greek and Latin.
I honestly never saw it written that way so I couldn’t draw a quick conclusion, but I see your point and I highly respect your “shorthand writing” or whatever is called I must say it is very enjoyable when interpreted correctly, in some other circles an X has a different connotation, like in some Bible stories without the need to write it. The clergy knows how to “short cut” some Bible stories from public knowledge otherwise Christianity won’t work. Religion is reshaped as needed and will not disappear overnight. I wrote a book to inform people, but there is not much interest to rationally analyze any religion…
Eze 16:37 - Therefore I am going to gather all your lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. (God keeps accurate score on all the sexual activities of his chosen people. God took some extra time beyond the week of creation to design heterosexual love affairs, which was unknown until Eve was put together sometime after God admitted an outright “NO GOOD” glitch in his creation failing to provide a companion of the opposite sex to Adam. They agreed that none of the animals was a suitable mate for him) I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see you stark naked. (God created Adam and Eve to walk in the nude until Eve discovered that stylish dressing is the way to go. God cannot stand prude strip-teasers who feel restricted by secular law. He goes beyond total nudity conveying a pointed message like inspiring an anonymous high holy priest to slice the dead body of his girlfriend in 12 pieces)
Nah 3:4-6 - All because of the wanton lust of a prostitute, alluring (Glamorous), the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft. (God the Son Jesus Christ the King of the Jews filled Heaven with prostitutes who never lost their original professional title, like the Righteous Prostitute Rahab) I am against you, declares the Lord Almighty. "I will lift your skirts over your face. I will show the nations your nakedness and the kingdoms your shame! I will pelt you with filth. I will treat you with contempt and make you a spectacle! (God is annoyed by prudish prostitutes hesitant to expose their God endowed charms to the fullest, he is promising to personally come to teach them a lesson)
Nah 1:12 - This is what the LORD says: ALTHOUGH I HAVE AFFLICTED YOU (The Jewish God brags about inflicting pain and suffering on the Jews), Judah, I will afflict you no more. (But only for a while until Adolf Hitler made it into the world scene. When Nahum wrote this story Judah’s population was about one million Jews, Hitler holocaust six million. The ten lost tribes of Israel continue lost to this day. God now promised the Jews, “I will afflict you no more” a promise that can still be fulfilled before Jesus’ second coming if ever)
Zec 8:14 - This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Just as I had determined to bring disaster on you and showed no pity when your ANCESTORS angered me,” says the LORD Almighty (Christians must be cautious about God’s moral traits punishing unsuspecting children for the sins of their parents forever)
2Cor 1:20 - For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ… (God still takes full credit for all the evil in the world)
Isa 45:7 - I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS. (God, not the Devil but God)
So, there is not much that can be added to what is written in the Bible, but to hide any story of a detrimental nature not to harm the course of Christianity that would land Christians in a fairy Heaven after they die, which is a better deal than the religious Jews got of a promised Holy Land in Palestine that they are still hoping to get.
Try a few billion years before natural selection “found” an alternate way of mixing genes creating greater variety and complexity, yielding better survival mechanisms .
EVOLUTION OF SEX
Why is there sex? We assume, anthropocentrically, that reproduction requires two individuals. But in many organisms that is not true. Life originated without sex (as best we can tell) so sexual reproduction is something that had to evolve.
First what is sexual reproduction? 1) production of haploid gametes by meiosis, a reduction division, 2) fusion of these gametes produces a zygote and restores the full diploid complement of chromosomes.
There are thus two parts to the evolution of sex: 1) the origin of sexual reproduction (cellular evolution) and 2) the evolution and maintenance of sexual reproduction and recombination (recombination is like sex in that it reassorts genetic material)
Recombination probably evolved ~ 3 billion years ago as a mechanism of DNA repair; sex evolved ~ 1-2 billion years ago in the early eukaryotes; the reason is unclear but it its likely that it is maintained in the current day by selection.
One “story” about the origin of sex is as follows (from J. Maynard-Smith, The Evolution of Sex, Cambridge University Press, 1978):
Binary cell fusion (advantage ~ hybrid vigor; masking deleterious mutations)
Evolve the use of one spindle apparatus (advantage = maintaining both sets of chromosomes and hence any hybrid vigor effects
See thread on microtubules.
Mechanisms of mitotic spindle assembly and function. | Semantic Scholar
Homologous pairing and chiasma (next step but advantage unclear; generates variation but also creates regions of genetic homozygosity)
Reduction division + syngamy (favored to restore heterozygosity)
This may be one plausible scenario but why higher eukaryotes spend so much of the haploid-diplod life cycle in the diploid stage is unclearSubsequent evolution and maintenance of sex and recombination.
Observation: one can select (both up and down) for rates of recombination between two loci without affecting other rates of recombination (see figure 8.6, pg.213). This means that there is genetic variation affecting recombination, which in turn means that selection can alter the rates of recombination.
more…Evolution of Sex