3point14r: What is the difference between human vision and the vision of a ring tailed lemur?steveklinko: You’re not listening … or else maybe you are a Bot.
Steve, you are claiming sight is based on mind. No animal has a mind anything close to a human mind, yet they have vision.
Therefore you are proposing that human sight is fundamentally different than that of all other organisms.
I am merely asking questions to try to grasp your rationale for this separation of human sight from all other sight. Knowing your reasoning will save you me and everyone else here lots of time, effort and frustration.
lausten:
Because you are trying to make vision be something different for humans. It’s like trying to nail jello to the wall. If we talk about color being a light wave frequency, you say that isn’t it. If we talk about waves existing at all, you argue about that. If we try to talk about qualia, you disallow all the arguments of what that is except your personal favorite. At that point, you’re just the pigeon who has turned over the chess board.
I’m not trying to make vision be something different for Humans. I never say Human vision is different from animal Vision. You are just making that up. Come on now, try not to be Dishonest. I’m not interested in Vision in animals. The issue, as to whether animal vision can someday be proved to be like ours or unlike ours, is irrelevant to this discussion.
Steve, you’re not really answering questions or responding to comments anymore. You’re critiquing and doing the tired old forum response, “I never said that”. In your response above, you do the very thing I’m describing.
steveklinko said: The issue, as to whether animal vision can someday be proved to be like ours or unlike ours, is irrelevant to this discussion.It has been proven that animal vision is very much like human vision. In fact it has been proven that some animal vision is superior to human vision.
Do tell what is relevant to the discussion. Are you proposing we don’t know how human vision works? I think that has been explained sufficiently , including links and illustrations. What else do you want to know?
Write4U, have you seen the video about chimpanzee vision and short-term memory compared to a humans.
I saw it a few years ago and it showed chimps glancing at a screen then correctly picking the numerical order of the squares when the numbers were removed. They were so much faster than the human that it almost seemed fake (it wasn’t). I wish I remembered where I saw it because it blew my mind.
write4u:
It has been proven that animal vision is very much like human vision. In fact it has been proven that some animal vision is superior to human vision. Do tell what is relevant to the discussion. Are you proposing we don’t know how human vision works? I think that has been explained sufficiently , including links and illustrations. What else do you want to know?
I am talking about the actual Visual Experience. So for example, I’m talking about the Experience of Color in our Visual Field. All that front end mechanism (Eyes, Optic Nerves, Visual Cortex, etc.) is of course fairly well understood. How does that Color Experience happen? The thing that we actually See?
Steve, are you able to give an explanation for what you think happens from the moment light hits our retinas to when we incorporate that information in our thoughts?
I don’t want to seem pedantic and obtuse, but I honestly still don’t know what your thoughts are on this.
You ask questions and demand a response, but our responses are derided due to your impression that they don’t address the issue. If we all ask roughly the same kind of questions, then either we’re all ignorant in exactly the same way, or there really is a gap in your message.
You ask questions and demand a response, but our responses are derided due to your impression that they don’t address the issue.What's wrong with getting berated for missing the mark?
If we all ask roughly the same kind of questions, then either we’re all ignorant in exactly the same way, or there really is a gap in your message.I would say we're probably all ignorant. Why can't we consider that a possibility? Steve is telling us something new. It behooves us to keep an open mind if we want to receive what he is offering.
It behooves us to keep an open mind if we want to receive what he is offering.Since when is something being completely different that what everyone else in history has experienced been an argument for something being true? Telling us to have an open mind is switching the focus from the question to the people. Again, nothing to do with truth or not. Steve references his own website and one authority. There many, many articles responding to that one authority. I’ve explored many of the thoughts on this subject, because, well, I have an open mind.
3point14rat:
Steve, are you able to give an explanation for what you think happens from the moment light hits our retinas to when we incorporate that information in our thoughts?
I don’t want to seem pedantic and obtuse, but I honestly still don’t know what your thoughts are on this.
You ask questions and demand a response, but our responses are derided due to your impression that they don’t address the issue. If we all ask roughly the same kind of questions, then either we’re all ignorant in exactly the same way, or there really is a gap in your message.
My goal is to solve or at least make some progress on the Hard Problem of Consciousness someday. We know that there is no visual Experience until certain Visual Cortex areas fire. When these areas fire there is a Visual Experience. The question of the Hard Problem is how do Firing Neurons in the Visual Cortex produce the Conscious Experience of something like the Color Red? This is also known as the Explanatory Gap of Conscious Experience.
steveklinko said; I am talking about the actual Visual Experience. So for example, I’m talking about the Experience of Color in our Visual Field. All that front end mechanism (Eyes, Optic Nerves, Visual Cortex, etc.) is of course fairly well understood. How does that Color Experience happen? The thing that we actually See?My goal is to solve or at least make some progress on the Hard Problem of Consciousness someday.
3p14rat said: I saw it a few years ago and it showed chimps glancing at a screen then correctly picking the numerical order of the squares when the numbers were removed. They were so much faster than the human that it almost seemed fake (it wasn’t). I wish I remembered where I saw it because it blew my mind.It was in the excellent video clip of NOVA ; "the Great Math Mystery" which proves that mathematics is the essence of nature and that all living beings and non-living objects are mathematical patterns and therefore can 'understand' maths.
The Lemur study starts at 21:20 but it’s well worth watching the entire presentation which really addresses the phenomenon of mathematics and why we can “identify” with mathematical logic, symbolize it, and use it to predict the future.
Write4U, I found it! Watch this video and be blown away:
Since when is something being completely different that what everyone else in history has experienced been an argument for something being true?Who was that guy who argued that the sun was the center of the world while everyone else in history had experienced that the Earth was the center and the sun moved from east to west?
Did I catch a big critter in my trap today or what?
3point14rat:
Write4U, I found it! Watch this video and be blown away:
Good one!
Who was that guy who argued that the sun was the center of the world while everyone else in history had experienced that the Earth was the center and the sun moved from east to west?Did I catch a big critter in my trap today or what? – Sree
@ 3p14rat and steveklinko said; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktkjUjcZid0Excellent find! Truly amazing and informative.
I like the idea that humans were kicked out of the forest because we are the weaker species. This seems still the case if we consider the status of “nerds”, in schools, the really smart guys who are not very good at sports, but end up being scientists and artists.
But I still believe that the fusion of chromosome 2 is the point were humans actually split from the “common” hominid lineage.
I like the idea that humans were kicked out of the forest because we are the weaker species.Professor Tetsuro is an idiot, in my opinion. His conclusions are leaps of faith. If humans were weak, we would still be in lockdown to hide from every predator including the Covid virus. Also, I don’t accept his belief that we can’t compete with the chimp in that number game because we gave up that ability for language in order to share. Institutionalized education, the kind that produces academics like Professor Tetsuro, has robbed us of our God-given natural ability to perceive the way chimps and other animals can. Pattern recognition. This is as instantaneous as the capture of images by the camera, the way the chimps see. After that, tracing out the pattern in the sequence in order to get Tetsuro’s food is so easy that even an ape (except man) can do. Do you know why we can’t do that? We see different as instructed by teacher to look for the sequence 1, 2, and by the time we get to 3 the pattern on the screen has vanished.
This seems still the case if we consider the status of “nerds”, in schools, the really smart guys who are not very good at sports, but end up being scientists and artists.There are a lot of nerds that end up in the trash bins of life. Name me a scientist or artist that makes more money than a jock like a Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods.
Imagining we were the nerds of the forest and bullied so badly that we went out onto the savannah suits me fine. Evolution isn’t an emotional force, so it is what it is, and I take no offense to any path it takes. We are lucky that our ancestors had the physical components necessary to continue evolving into us.
I’ll have to look into the specifics of human evolution to see what part the fusion of Chromosome 2 played. As interesting as evolution is, I have never been more interested in checking out the path Homo sapiens took than that of other organisms.
UGH! The idea that the amount of money someone makes is a measure of their importance in society is laughably lame. No intelligent response to that idea is possible, so none is given.