Is the individual more important than the collective?

A hustler? You mean Trump is like the operator of a shell game? Who are the players? Nancy Pelosi and her band of thieves in Congress? I think you are right. He did resent the fact that the US has been taken for a sucker and hustled by both friend and foe for decades. He is now turning the table. He wants to play the shell game, for America, as the operator and make the rest of the world the players.

Apparently, the left also see him as a hustler; and that is why they hate him and refuse to accept him as President. Would he hustle his own base? What do you think? There is honor among thieves, and even the Mafia has an honor code.

This is a horrible thought. It makes sense if you do the math. There is more to life than logic and reason alone. The human being is not merely a biological organism like a rainbow trout priced at ten dollars a pound.
Obviously. That's why it's an unanswerable dilemma for most of us. On the one hand the math says it makes sense. On the other, killing a baby is equally horrific to us.

But I would point out that I never actually said “kill a baby”. If you could go back in time, why would you kill baby Hitler? You could likely drastically change history if you just killed baby Hitler’s dickhead father before he had a chance to screw baby Hitler up beyond redemption. But I never actually even said anything about going back in time.

Instead, look at the ending of Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Kahn. One person (Spock) sacrifices himself to save hundreds. In that particular case he would have died either way, so it wasn’t as noble as they made it out to be, but still pretty noble.

But even that has pretty much zero meaning until you assign it specifics. Morality is a fickle thing. When I ask you about killing one person to save millions your brain automatically goes to a specific instance. But there are endless possibilities there.

What if you were given a choice: Kill one random person you do not know or a bomb will go off in New York, killing millions? That’s still a pretty tough choice.

Now, what if that random person you do not know isn’t random, it’s the person controlling the bomb? Kill the person who is going to murder millions to save their lives. Now the moral dilemma lessens because you’re killing a would-be murderer who would be directly responsible for the loss of life you are preventing.

What if there are a million people tied up and one man going down the line and stabbing them, one by one? Men, women, children, all in a line. You have a gun, but you can’t get to him to physically restrain him. You have a shot, but only a kill shot. You kill him or you watch him kill. Now, for most of us, there is no dilemma at all. You shoot. But for extreme pacifists letting the million people die would be better because it would mean that they, personally, were not a party to violence. They may argue that they do not have responsibility for what another does, only their own actions, and inaction is the only thing that keeps them from bearing responsibility for the loss of life.

So you see, all of these hypothetical are very situational and all beside the point I was making. That point was that whether the individual or the group was more important was also very situational. In a political party the party is more important than any member and the country is (or at least should be) more important than the party. In that case a group is more important than an individual, but less important than a second group. There are situations in which each way is true, and even that is always subjective.

Baby Hitler was too cute to kill. How does that figure in to morality?

Skree, T rump is a hustler, con man, above all of his qualifications to be a successful politician. His rubes are people like you who buy into his self-hyping. T rump University, T rump “charities” are among the more blatant and public of his scams. You buy in to his story line about the USA being unfairly exploited by all of the major countries of the world? So now you believe T rump to be our savior con-man who will exploit them instead? (Strange, isn’t it that the USA has the best economy in the world, despite being taken advantage of by all of the other greedy nations of the world, for as far back as T rump can remember?)

Don’t feel bad, Skree, you are just one among many, many who have been hopelessly conned by the T rump

I feel we must all collectively take responsibility. You may feel good being guilt-free. Personal irresponsibility is destroying our world.
Oh the irony of a trumpster crowing about "responsibility."

Though I totally agree the sentences, liberals have been limp noodles, Democrats have sucked, we should all be ashamed that we were all complicit. Recognize, accept and learn from. Everyone hates hearing that, but that’s how it is. We collectively allowed trump and putin and corporate money and dirty tricks to take that election, and looking at this impeachments process doesn’t seem like anything is being learned.

We are the Hollywood Nation, since the 50s increasingly turning our backs on our democratic responsibilities, along with our responsibility to other peoples and nations, been watching it grow like a cancer my entire life. I figured it would turn out badly but never imagined it could go off the rails so fast, but here we are.

 

And those people still calling the shots, they are playing for keeps. We?, we’re just worried about the next pay check at this point.

 

 

It depends on what one means by “important” and on the particulars of each situation.

Each of us will die; when may not be as much of a concern as how. An even greater concern may be who will be affected by our demise and how they will be affected. It might be kinder to not sacrifice oneself for a loved one, friend or neighbor.

The collective exists to serve the individual. If a collective does not fulfill that mission, and especially if it cannot be revised so that it does fulfill its mission, it should be replaced or eliminated. If an individual, or a group of individuals, is seen as destructive to the collective he, or they, should be isolated or removed from the collective.

The god’s eye view, I suppose.

In the end all is dust so nothing matters.

Yippy oh profound one.

A hustler? You mean Trump is like the operator of a shell game? Who are the players? Nancy Pelosi and her band of thieves in Congress? I think you are right. He did resent the fact that the US has been taken for a sucker and hustled by both friend and foe for decades. He is now turning the table. He wants to play the shell game, for America, as the operator and make the rest of the world the players.

Apparently, the left also see him as a hustler; and that is why they hate him and refuse to accept him as President. Would he hustle his own base? What do you think? There is honor among thieves, and even the Mafia has an honor code.


I mean hustler in the more generic sense — somebody who exploits whatever might be useful, but “shell game operator” is close enough.

As for Trump hustling his base, that is definitely a possibility. I am not too worried about that because Trump is ultimately about winning and his whole platform is making America great again. If he wrecks his base by making them worse off that would make him a loser. And no one else is going to vote for him!

The collective exists to serve the individual.
True enough in our society. Not accurate for humanity in general.