Is Pyrrhonism the ultimate truth?

Philosophy
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You don’t think that sounds like it’s coming from an absolutist sort of outlook ?

The thing is that this isn’t about me this or that.

It’s about lip service or actually recognizing well enough to do something with it.

I’m sad it’s offensive, but I challenge someone to come up with a better description of the past centuries of learned philosophy (same with religion/theology) - intellectually self-absorbed and self-serving in action. It’s been the driving essence of western society.

Sure within our tribes, we’re capable of amazing beauty and wonder and I’m not blind to that - neither am I blinded by that. The other side of coin deserves to be examined. Beyond our tribe and self-interested transactionalism, we human have consistently behaved utterly horrendous towards others and landscapes. It is what it is. That legacy is rooted in Abrahamic thinking and western, explorations and conquests. A reading of history makes that attitude self-evident.
Why should that be such a radical notion?

There’s too much sloppiness in the details for fast open and shut, you have Free Will, or you don’t have Free Will, with nothing in between. Heck few bother to explain what they mean with, “Free Will.”

What justifies your offense, or dismissal?

Sounds to me like that because every event has a precursory event - we can’t come up with a unique thought. But, I don’t understand it and will have to spend more time with at some point Sapolsky (in Determined) .

L, are you denying the real conundrum between all the lofty talk about “NO Free Will” with it’s flawless trains of logic, yet, yet,
Then the next day in the real world we’re having to weigh choices and make decisions that have outcomes and more, each decision has it’s cone of consequence, an infinitely complex dance in a matrix of determinacy.
Even a matrix has interstitials, perhaps we might find a tiny world of Petite Free Will hiding in there. :wink:

“What will you be present to?” It does have consequences.

Your physical body with it innate (evolved) Will of it’s own - I don’t really separate my mind’s aware from my bodies awareness anymore, I know I think through my mind, but I also know that my body has it’s own influences upon my state of mind, and me, and I’ve learned to really try to heed it’s unspoken advice. Friends of mine, know that I’ve occasionally admitted that my body has taken better care of me than I have of it.

If that is “just me” - wow, that would be a shocker.

Have you no inner relationship or aware of your body as separate from your mind, projecting you through this life?

Has as much plausibility as other notions bandied about.

Hmmm, it occurred to me, wouldn’t Pyrrho have applauded by thoughtful skepticism toward philosophical discourses? :bouquet: :raising_hand_man:

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62

I’ve done that about 199 times with you. You don’t accept any description other than your own

I don’t do those so nothing to justify

I’m human. It’s feels like that. But I know my body creates the things in my mind. Why are you asking this?

It’s common knowledge. Why do you think it’s radical?

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Well so long as you dismiss the importance of really, truly, deeply, coming to terms with your evolved biological body - then running to more mind produce philosophy that’s convinced they can logic-it-out, while avoiding what the past couple decades of science has offered so far as clarifying insights right and left.

Philosophers could possibly logic-it-out, but certainly not so long as that deep down, little reflected upon assumption that we are God’s special gift - rather than a branch of the evolutionary bush.

I’m sorry you have a problem with that. But that’s what it is.

As for unquestioning you Faith in western philosophy - Especially after these past couple years of experiences.
The current state of the world is the best they could accomplish - call me unimpressed!!

I can hear you calling that irrelevant. But, the connection is real.

You don’t think so - you outta review your comments.

Okay, that answers that.

Then why all the flak? Why not dig into that a little deeper.

What’s radical apparently is getting comfortable with the divide between Physical Reality ~ Human Mind.

Deeply appreciating your own body’s evolutionary journey,
It opens one up to our close relationship with Earth and biosphere and all that - which in turn, if absorbed would have had us acting toward Earth, other humans and living being, in a nurturing thoughtful manner, the way they do within healthy human families.

Instead on every front we have self-created terror steaming towards us, and don’t seem to be capable of anything beyond tossing more fuel on the fires.

You think philosophers, humanity’s greatest thinkers, should get a free pass on that, I don’t - especially when I hear what passes for philosophy these days. Not to mention all the flak I get.

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Yeah. Basically you speak to voices in your head, nothing that I’m saying.

It’s part of the mission statement of this forum.

And now you reading my mind. I could debunk that.

When did I do that?

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And your response is?

No it’s reading your words and the way you arrange them.

Like I’ve said go back and read your own comments.

There’s exploring a topic and there’s dismissal.

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I do it on a daily basis.

That’s just a claim. Or doesn’t engage me in any way.

I wrote them and remember them. Instead of complaining, how about some dialog.

If it’s self-created, then why don’t you stop creating yourself? Or are you saying that some other “selves” are creating it, and you are the one receiving it?

67

Just a thought, could be wrong.

When I post a philosopher or question a conclusion by Mark Solms, or ask you to clarify your “physical reality-mind scape” thing, I’m not saying it is wrong, definitely not dismissing it. I’m saying “oh, that’s interesting, here’s what I think.” Sorry if I came across as saying what you think I said.

68

Well that would be refreshing - you asking for clarification.
Show me some examples of that in practice.

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Global warming and the Republican War on science and political civility, and then the MAGA movement’s war on USA’s constitution, not to mention the insane stuff billionaires are sinking there fortunes into, loosing oneself in Hollywood envy and empty materialism - those are our self created terror. I’m certainly not discussing self-imagined! Now if you imagine none of those are actually existential problems for us and especially for our children - then I guess there’s nothing left to discuss.

Self-help title numbers nearly tripled during the same period, from 30,897 to 85,253. This industry was worth $10.5 billion as of 2020 .

Shouldn’t that cause one to wonder about where we failed? Why so many lost and hurting people out there. Why kids that vent by trying to kill as many other kids as possible, or the billions spent on the visceral joy of simply play acting via video games, all the graphics of blowing up the sobs, without the mess. I mean, how cool is that. :neutral_face:

But I’m supposed to be supportive of ( in light of our accumulated scientific knowledge about our biology and the complexities of this Earth and her life’s story. ) out of date philosophical arguments; inappropriate mind experiments, and unacknowledged shackles to god envy and obsessing over ultimate answers. Just because philosophy become an overgrown academic powerhouse.

I don’t actually know what we’re arguing - I’m imagining it’s really about me being bold enough to summarize western philosophy as self absorbed thinking, leading to self serving actions. Leading to our 2020’s slow motion train wreck.

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Didn’t say you were. What you’re saying is humans are doing bad things. My brother is an archeologicalist, he can tell you we’ve been doing that forever. Why do you think that you pointing it out will make it so?

If be happy if you just stopped repeating yourself. I get it already.

I’m not going to play the “show me the replay” game. I’ve asked you to explain just how one decides to get “viscerally” a feeling of deep time, of our evolutionary history. I know it can come from study, from immersion, but you say we “have to” get it. How do you make that happen in others?

71

Their “war” is really an attempt to redefine the constitution (constitutional originalism) and use its weak parts against us. If we had the people capable of rewriting the constitution responsibly (and we do), and we empowered them to do so, our country would benefit greatly. The originalists are ignorant - or more likely, choose ignorance - in their intent to ignore our species’ progress. A well regulated militia is just one of many topics that today are nothing like what they were in the 18th century. (Slavery, misogyny, xenophobia, lgbtq, atom bombs, globalism, and the list goes on.)

Our world has very different ingredients than the one of the 18th century. It’s time to bake a better, healthier Apple Pie for everyone.

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72

Well, it happens to do with humanity’s numbers.

This is why I’m talking about that key window of opportunity in the '60-'70 where the reality of Earth’s finiteness came screaming home to anyone who cared to pay attention. Then came Reagan and the GOP goggernaut doing the service of unhinged billionaires.

Unfortunately, too many did their best to ignore, which lead to the people walking around in a daze believing: “Same As It Ever Was.”

Get caught up on your Earth science. Implying that today is no different than it ever was in human history, is decidedly self-delusional (or is it just denial?). Because that state of mind simply doesn’t add up to the reality unfolding in front of us.

Approaching a state shift in Earth’s biosphere

Nature volume 486, pages 52–58 (2012)Cite this article

Abstract

Localized ecological systems are known to shift abruptly and irreversibly from one state to another when they are forced across critical thresholds.

Here we review evidence that the global ecosystem as a whole can react in the same way and is approaching a planetary-scale critical transition as a result of human influence.

The plausibility of a planetary-scale ‘tipping point’ highlights the need to improve biological forecasting by detecting early warning signs of critical transitions on global as well as local scales, and by detecting feedbacks that promote such transitions.
It is also necessary to address root causes of how humans are forcing biological changes.

This is why rethinking our philosophical foundation of self-absorbed thinking & self-serving actions, becomes a necessity - or not.
No reason we can’t totally annihilate ourselves, with continued disregard for Earth systems (again lip serve is worse than worthless) .

Not sure how to get more graphic about it than this graph, sadly people have numbed themselves to it, and think it doesn’t concern them.

2699×2544 214 KB

What’s wrong with this picture - what is the same as it always was?

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Au contraire, this shows an increase in activity. We are looking at an exponential growth graph.

The formula is very simple. The doubling time in an exponential growth curve is calculated :
“divide 70 by the percent of growth rate over 1 year”
i.e.
1% steady growth results in a doubling time every 70 years
2% steady growth results in a doubling time every 35 years
5% steady growth results in a doubling time every 14 years
10% steady growth results in a doubling time every 7 years
etc.

A very interesting story is told by Dr Albert Bartlett on this excellent lecture video:

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Yes I know. You keep telling me things I know. You and I differently than our ancestors, and unlike many alive now. We agree on a lot of things. So, how do you get others to join us?

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I don’t have the touch, I’m the sound of one hand clapping. but I’ll keep trying but people aren’t interested, so it’s all about the journey and plugging away mustering as much dignity and grace as I can.

Since I really have lost my faith in the future and I want to stay sane, I focus on my little circle and what I can do, when I can do it.

There’s simply working on refining the simple lessons I’ve learned over an active engaged life and hoping they’ll connect with someone that cares sometime, and if not then not.

It about living my days and doing my civic, democratic duties, such as:

& the library district &

That has been reignited, you know, in for a nickel in for a dollar. Feels like a moral obligation.

I’ll continue arguing with the world, as I have been since a fairly young age, at least now I know who I am, and the world and people in general have been a gross disappointment. But I still like people, and love a fair amount of them, dogs plus little kids like me too.

Rewrite, rewrite, chew on it, rewrite, let it rest, rewrite and refine, share and hope for feedback. The rest is up to others

My entire spiel with Earth Centrism, and the Human Mind ~ Physical Reality divide, …

My observation about the need for a truly, deep, profound appreciation for your own body’s evolutionary roots. And for the distinct difference between your body and the mind that it produces.

Which in turn produces a way different attitude towards, and interaction with, animals and landscapes, our biosphere, our Earth, and even our own limited time to live. The nice part about the past five and half years, my own questions and efforts of over a half century have been resolved and crystallized. I’m not grappling with questions and doubt. I searched out experiences, evidence and and thoughts of others, and followed that ageless advice, seek and with a pure heart and diligence, ye shall find. I know that it worlds and it’s frustrating seeing all the self-destructive nonsense people are distracted with.

Yeah I’ll bet all that sounds overly poetic and pompous, but only from the outside, it is what it is.

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76

Yeah and I was listening and paying attention to that guy during High School Science class ('73) along with the basics of climate science and so on.

We all learned this stuff. Most forgot about it, I never did, all natural sciences were thrilling for me and the love of it has always remained, makes me who I am.

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Cool

Bummer

Have you seen this

At 20 he describes why Zebras don’t get ulcers. But keep listening. He’s talking about how they don’t have anticipatory stress. He switches to his primary field, studying baboons, who only spend 3 hours a day working on survival issues, so they have 9 hours a day for making some other baboon miserable. He equates this non-sensical stress generation with Western society. One of the highest causes of male baboon death is other male baboons. Having higher ranking members of the tribe make our lives miserable is part of our evolution.

At 25:45 the older interviewer describes how he at one time didn’t feel stressed, but he acclimated to it and he could only function at those levels. His doctor said that’s how humans are wired. We’re addicted to it. I’m trying to get off that cycle. When I stopped being an alcoholic, I stopped going to the bar. The world is the “bar” of stress. I’m trying to talk soberly to my drunken friends.

2 Likes
78

Yup, it sure is a bummer, all we needed was a little less greed and a little more appreciation for our planet Earth and all of its inhabitants.

We humans definitely got the smarts, it’s the introspection and wisdom to care, that we’ve failed at so miserably.
And sorry simply caring for one’s own tribe doesn’t cut it, in the long run, we needed to learn to transcend ourselves - it’s within our human power but most aren’t interested.

And by transcending, I’m not talking about some bells’n whistles and fireworks, it a quiet awareness and understanding and appreciation.
Anti-climatic perhaps, but so much more solid and constructive.

{I’ll get to that video yet}

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79

When exactly should we have appreciated the planet? Indigenous people have that steeped in their culture, so some certainly did and still do. No one really knew the scope and size of the planet until a few hundred years ago, so not sure how they could appreciate much beyond their own ability to explore. I suppose you are talking about recent history. The overconsumption really kicked in right about the time the scientific revolution took off, kind of ironic. Our wisdom couldn’t keep up with our knowledge. I can’t change history. I do my best to make a difference now.

Not sure why the apology. I have no argument with that. It’s been claimed our tribalism got us through the difficult millennia, scratching out an existence. Seems plausible, but what do I know? Either way, shaking off that much evolution is a lot to ask. We have to ask though, right? Or destroy ourselves.

Something I don’t hear too much, the planet will be fine. Even if we “transcend” this current crisis, species don’t last forever. I’ve heard estimates of 200,000 years left for us. With that in mind, I’d rather enjoy the ride than live as if the future won’t exist. It will exist, but without me. I’d like to be remembered well for a couple of generations, not much I can do about the planet after that. Just leave it better than I found, that’s what my dad said.

80

The new appreciation that ripened about 1950/1960s when the reality of our planet’s limits was finally driven home scientifically.

Add to that the realization that we were making babies like never ever before and that was going to take us into very ugly territory - when it came to Earth’s ability to sustain our skyrocketing needs.

What’s vague, or tough to grasp about that.

We had turned the tables, we were truly Gods now, and the Earth with it’s biosphere and global heat and moisture distribution machine was at our mercy.

Nothing vague about that. What is so tough to see?