DL they looked at names differently. Names evolved.
Just guessing Paul for example would have been ul –pa.
Right to left reading.
Pa would have a meaning as well as UL had a meaning.
Most older words came from two letter root words.
Have not been able to find the reason why.
Reason itself tells me.
Rhyme was the reason. Most all history, math, science and stuff were rhymed.
You learned by rhymes at schools.
Islam today is still taught that way, but they are cheating by following written words.
The idea of rhyme is, if it doesn’t rhyme then its wrong.
Check out the old Islam religious text, they had trouble making it rhyme.
And a lot of the text that does rhyme makes no sense at all.
The trail of rhyme leads to India and the Rig Veda.
It was used in the Canaan area and Egypt used it too.
Is = Land, ra = God of Egypt, el = The
Right to left reading, “The God’s Land" or Israel.
In “The God’s Land” you had the “City of God’s” or Salem, known today as Jerusalem.
Disclaimer, I’m no expert, this is my understanding.
I know but if you never die is that not everlasting life? After death can we call that life? Life after death seems a little conflicting. Is the soul a life form? If yes, then is god a life form? If it is a life form can it be everlasting and/or eternal? Round n Round we go.Are you counting on living on earth forever? I doubt anything lives forever, and as of now, 100 years or thereabouts seems to be the limit for humans. Sure it might be extended one say but probably not all that much for you and me. Besides that, the quality of life declines fast after 90. Do you really want to live more years in declining health and wracked with dementia? How many big advances are likely to be made before you reach your dotage? Lois
It looks like 116 years is about as old as we can live. The oldest man, a Japanese citizen born in 1897 just passed away today.
I agree that quality of life is of primary importance. Most of us live in a bubble of immortality and continue to believe that there will be a tomorrow. BTW, religion gives us hope that there will be a continuous life beyond death, hence it’s appeal. Who actually contemplates their own ultimate demise? Believing that there is actually a Valhalla makes living a lot easier for most people. It’s self deceptive, but insulates us from the pain of separation or the idea that we are finite.
Cap’t Jack
Cap’t Jack,
Just a thought.
Organized religion, let’s say goes back 17,000 years.
So the Vedic was the major thinking for 12,000 years.
And religions that evolved thought Vedic are still here today, mainly in India, Pakistan and China.
My understanding of the Cast System was that the people looked forward to dyeing as a way to move up the Cast System.
When they got to the top of the Cast System they went to Heaven. But their standing on earth was critical as to which planet (or heaven) they went to.
I know but if you never die is that not everlasting life? After death can we call that life? Life after death seems a little conflicting. Is the soul a life form? If yes, then is god a life form? If it is a life form can it be everlasting and/or eternal? Round n Round we go.Are you counting on living on earth forever? I doubt anything lives forever, and as of now, 100 years or thereabouts seems to be the limit for humans. Sure it might be extended one say but probably not all that much for you and me. Besides that, the quality of life declines fast after 90. Do you really want to live more years in declining health and wracked with dementia? How many big advances are likely to be made before you reach your dotage? Lois Sorry, Lois, for not making myself clear. The question was rhetorical. But as shown in my quote (#48), there are indeed organisms that have the ability to live forever, or until the earth dies.
Main article: Biological immortality Certain exotic organisms do not seem to be subject to aging and can live indefinitely. Examples include Tardigrades and Hydras. That is not to say that these organisms cannot die, merely that they only die as a result of disease or injury rather than age-related deterioration (and that they are not subject to the Hayflick limit).
Hayflick limit, Wiki, The Hayflick limit[Note 1] (or Hayflick phenomenon) is the number of times a normal human cell population will divide until cell division stops. Empirical evidence shows that the telomeres associated with each cell's DNA will get slightly shorter with each new cell division until they shorten to a critical length.[1][2] The concept of the Hayflick limit was advanced by Leonard Hayflick in 1961,[1] at the Wistar Institute in Philadelphia. Hayflick demonstrated that a population of normal human fetal cells in a cell culture will divide between 40 and 60 times. The population will then enter a senescence phase, which refutes the contention by Nobel laureate Alexis Carrel that normal cells are immortal. Each mitosis slightly shortens each of the telomeres on the DNA of the cells. Telomere shortening in humans eventually makes cell division impossible, and this aging of the cell population appears to correlate with the overall physical aging of the human body. Natural maintenance of the length of the telomeric region appears to prevent genomic instability and helps to curb the development of cell mutations that may lead to cancer.It is obvious that human DNA does not allow us to live forever. But my question remains, after death how do we "live on"? Is God alive? If so as what? What are the properties of Heaven?
Cap’t Jack, Just a thought. Organized religion, let’s say goes back 17,000 years. So the Vedic was the major thinking for 12,000 years. And religions that evolved thought Vedic are still here today, mainly in India, Pakistan and China. My understanding of the Cast System was that the people looked forward to dyeing as a way to move up the Cast System. When they got to the top of the Cast System they went to Heaven. But their standing on earth was critical as to which planet (or heaven) they went to.I wouldn't put organized religion beyond it's formation in ancient Sumerian culture, roughly 5,000 ya Whereas the Vedic belief system began ca. 3,500 ya and is a bit younger. That's organized religion with a pantheon of gods, tempes and a religious heirarchy. And my knowledge of the caste system is limited but isn't the point to rise through the various castes in order to escape reincarnation? Isn't that the actual goal of the Vedic system to become a part of god or the oversoul? So the adherent is actually attempting to escape the cycle and be absorbed into a higher intelligence not especially seeking immortality as an individual would in one of the Abrahamic beliefs. Cap't Jack
An archeological site in Turkey, Gobekli Tepe, has monuments that are suggestive of some sort of temple ruins. This suggests some sort of organized religious activity, dated between 9,000 and 11,000 ya, pre-dating agrarian societies. Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple? | History| Smithsonian Magazine
An archeological site in Turkey, Gobekli Tepe, has monuments that are suggestive of some sort of temple ruins. This suggests some sort of organized religious activity, dated between 9,000 and 11,000 ya, pre-dating agrarian societies. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/gobekli-tepe.htmlI'm familiar with that site Tim but it appears to be more of an anomaly and not a settlement as so far archeologists haven't found remains of a permanent settlement pattern. It's a fascinating find though but what I pointed out in reference to organized religious practices was a theocratically dominated city-state with a heirachry and tempes created for continuous group worship. That plus the first form of true writing to record these events and the legends that surrounded their gods, some of which was borrowed by the Semites BTW. After all Abraham was supposed to have lived in the Sumerian city of Ur, if he actually existed. Cap't Jack
To those who do not believe in free will within the bounds of nature and physics, I have a test that proves to you that you have a free will or freedom to choose. Let me know if you have taken this test or want to. Regards DLYou appear to be misunderstanding what free will and determinism are. If I should "want to" take the test does not mean I have free will, as you seem to imply. The point is what would be driving me to "want to" take the test. That desire doesn't come out of left field. If i want to take it, it's because determining factors I am unaware of are pushing me in that direction. If I (or someone else) did not want to take the test, it would also be because of determining factors. The test of free will or no free will is not in the wanting or not wanting to do something. It has to do with what brings you to that decision. My contention is that it is not a matter of free will (whatever that is, anyway), it's determining factors we have no control over or even awareness of. Lois
With what I have read (white papers), I use 12K before the Flood of 2807 BC. Several archaeologist are now saying quit possibly 15 to 20K, The archaeologist in India swear 30K plus. But I would like outside countries to agree first.
The DNA test of the cereal grains show a minimum of 20K years of professionally SELECTIVELY farming. Selectively means to pick you best producing seeds for next years harvest.
The Hyksos moved with the grains to Egypt in 1700BC. So we are looking at 29.7K for the India religions. So I reduced that down to 17,000 years because I knew it might be in question.
This is before written language. But not before spoken language. The Veda teachings of the stars, math, science, religion, and laws of the land were all in rhyme. Like the Islam is in rhyme today.
So when Ur was in mud huts, the Indus valley had two story homes with running water, bathrooms, and sewer systems. Swimming pools were common. The building bricks were all the same size in the country.
Glass was being manufactured. This predates the history books. Right now they are trying to figure out how they were able to drill holes in the glass. And the only way they have been able to reproduce the glass beads is by using wire. Problem is history does not have metal until thousands of years latter.
With the sizes of the granaries they had to be very organized.
The seals used in trade and banking have been found in Sumer.
The cowry shells that were used in the Middle East and Africa came from India.
When I started my research the Hyksos built the kings winter castle in The Land of Goshen, Egypt. The winter castle was a fort called Avaris. History books today still say it was only a story and Avaris has never been found and may not even exist.
A couple years back they found Avaris.
I bet they do not find any graves of the Hyksos because of the sky burial. Egyptians use ground burials.
To believe the little villages in Sumer could have the Genesis’s story and come up with writing is a little hard for me to believe.
Now look at all the fruits that had been domesticated from the wild, like apples and oranges and the garden vegetables. Not from Sumer but from India. All the fruit and nuts grown in Sumer were domesticated and came from India.
DNA is rewriting histories timeline.
I’m open and willing to not even use a date. It is the thoughts that count.
Cap’t Jack Post #65
I do not separate religion from government in that time of history. Only well established governments have been able to get to that point. But I have to say that the Rig Veda was somewhat separated from the king as they were not one.
So don’t look for organized religion like today. My thinking is if they had a government, it was religious. And there is your organized religion.
Taxes were collected by the religious side of government for a long time.
DL they looked at names differently. Names evolved. Just guessing Paul for example would have been ul –pa. Right to left reading. Pa would have a meaning as well as UL had a meaning. Most older words came from two letter root words. Have not been able to find the reason why. Reason itself tells me. Rhyme was the reason. Most all history, math, science and stuff were rhymed. You learned by rhymes at schools. Islam today is still taught that way, but they are cheating by following written words. The idea of rhyme is, if it doesn't rhyme then its wrong. Check out the old Islam religious text, they had trouble making it rhyme. And a lot of the text that does rhyme makes no sense at all. The trail of rhyme leads to India and the Rig Veda. It was used in the Canaan area and Egypt used it too. Is = Land, ra = God of Egypt, el = The Right to left reading, “The God’s Land" or Israel. In "The God's Land" you had the "City of God's" or Salem, known today as Jerusalem. Disclaimer, I’m no expert, this is my understanding.In Africa even today. Ask for some history and they sing you the story. It would have been a natural for those with no written language as it helps memory. Remember singing the alphabet? We likely all do. Regards DL
To those who do not believe in free will within the bounds of nature and physics, I have a test that proves to you that you have a free will or freedom to choose. Let me know if you have taken this test or want to. Regards DLYou appear to be misunderstanding what free will and determinism are. If I should "want to" take the test does not mean I have free will, as you seem to imply. The point is what would be driving me to "want to" take the test. That desire doesn't come out of left field. If i want to take it, it's because determining factors I am unaware of are pushing me in that direction. If I (or someone else) did not want to take the test, it would also be because of determining factors. The test of free will or no free will is not in the wanting or not wanting to do something. It has to do with what brings you to that decision. My contention is that it is not a matter of free will (whatever that is, anyway), it's determining factors we have no control over or even awareness of. Lois I disagree. And yes, the will is driven by information. It has to be. How else could you decide or choose what set of information is valid and should be followed by the will. Before that thinking process starts, our instincts, which default to cooperation, are in force. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA Regards DL
Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you? Regards DLI wouldn't call it egotistical because they are thinking He dies for everyone's sins for all time. Bonkers --yeah. The question of how do sacrifices work is never explained clearly and usually sidestepped with a "God is a mystery" kind of answer....
With what I have read (white papers), I use 12K before the Flood of 2807 BC. Several archaeologist are now saying quit possibly 15 to 20K, The archaeologist in India swear 30K plus. But I would like outside countries to agree first. The DNA test of the cereal grains show a minimum of 20K years of professionally SELECTIVELY farming. Selectively means to pick you best producing seeds for next years harvest. The Hyksos moved with the grains to Egypt in 1700BC. So we are looking at 29.7K for the India religions. So I reduced that down to 17,000 years because I knew it might be in question. This is before written language. But not before spoken language. The Veda teachings of the stars, math, science, religion, and laws of the land were all in rhyme. Like the Islam is in rhyme today. So when Ur was in mud huts, the Indus valley had two story homes with running water, bathrooms, and sewer systems. Swimming pools were common. The building bricks were all the same size in the country. Glass was being manufactured. This predates the history books. Right now they are trying to figure out how they were able to drill holes in the glass. And the only way they have been able to reproduce the glass beads is by using wire. Problem is history does not have metal until thousands of years latter. With the sizes of the granaries they had to be very organized. The seals used in trade and banking have been found in Sumer. The cowry shells that were used in the Middle East and Africa came from India. When I started my research the Hyksos built the kings winter castle in The Land of Goshen, Egypt. The winter castle was a fort called Avaris. History books today still say it was only a story and Avaris has never been found and may not even exist. A couple years back they found Avaris. I bet they do not find any graves of the Hyksos because of the sky burial. Egyptians use ground burials. To believe the littDle villages in Sumer could have the Genesis’s story and come up with writing is a little hard for me to believe. Now look at all the fruits that had been domesticated from the wild, like apples and oranges and the garden vegetables. Not from Sumer but from India. All the fruit and nuts grown in Sumer were domesticated and came from India. DNA is rewriting histories timeline. I’m open and willing to not even use a date. It is the thoughts that count.I have absolutely no idea what you are using as a reference but culture in the Indus Valley began roughly 5,300 ya with the development of the Harrapan and Mohenjodaro cultures. A great bath was uncovered there but no temples worthy of the name and they had formed an as yet undecifered form of writing. Prior to the formation of the city, approx. . 9,000 ya, a primative form of agriculture developed based on grain. It was an early Neolithic site, later formed into two distinct cities both of whom probably traded with Sumer and Egypt. So, being entirely contemporary with Sumer, Ur was hardly a village of mud huts. At that time every Sumerian City boasted of it's own Ziggarut temple (the tower of Babel was patterned after them), priestly heirarchy, and established writing system to record trade transactions and epic folk stories including "The Epic of Gilgamesh" completely preserved on cuneiform tablets. So yes there is ample evidence to prove that the Genesis tales were derived from Sumerian writings. Archeologists have uncovered litterally thousands of the tablets providing anthropologists with a wealth of information about the Sumerians. It isn't a matter of belief, it's emperical evidence. And where is your proof that all fruits and nuts came from the Indus Valey? Why wouldn't literate Sumerian traders have recorded this important transaction? Also, the Hyksos who ushered in the Middle Kingdom era in Egypt if memory serves me gave the Egyptians the war chariot and iron working. They were later driven out and the New Kingdom began. What exactly do you mean by "sky burial"? Are you referring to Scaffold burial? Why would a conquering people not absorb the culture (which they did BTW) of the conquered and bury their dead in the same manner as those around them? I'm not familiar with this form of burial ever being used in ancient Egypt. Cap't Jack
With what I have read (white papers), I use 12K before the Flood of 2807 BC.There was no such flood. The deluge is a myth. See http://www.skepticreport.com/sr/?p=475
Replying to the opening post: Let’s not overlook the layers and layers of assumptions embedded in the narrative. Taken just in the element listed in our topic title, the narrative of Jesus’ willing sojourn to earth and his willing sacrifice of his own life is a beautiful story about how sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of one. Of course the story is egotistical, at many levels: in order to have any positive moral impact, Jesus has to be seen as an example, so the story invites us to project ourselves into the person and character of God. But on the other hand, the narrative invites us to do what is right no matter what the cost may be to ourselves. That’s not the problem with the narrative.
The problem is all the background - the other parts of the story - and the depth of its flaws depends on the particular way in which the story is told. For example, if the story begins with an omnipotent, omniscient and loving god creating the universe and having the power to do anything he decides to do, then of course the story makes no sense, and the “sacrifice” is completely gratuitous. If the purpose of God’s coming to die is to save us from eternal torment in a hell God supposedly created, that’s another crippling problem. If the idea is that we can only be saved if we accept God’s offer of salvation - else our debt of sin remains unpaid, and a “just” God could not have us in heaven under those circumstances - then there’s no accounting for why most of the world never heard the story for many centuries after these miraculous things supposedly happened.
Those are fatal problems with the narrative. But let’s not lose sight of the symbolic message that appeals so strongly to so many people. If you ignore the details, it’s a beautiful story. We need to stop reacting in knee-jerk fashion to this sort of thing, do a better job understanding why its appeal is so powerful, and see the dignity in that response to the story.
I know but if you never die is that not everlasting life? After death can we call that life? Life after death seems a little conflicting. Is the soul a life form? If yes, then is god a life form? If it is a life form can it be everlasting and/or eternal? Round n Round we go.That's like asking whether a unicorn is a mammal - isn't it?
I know but if you never die is that not everlasting life? After death can we call that life? Life after death seems a little conflicting. Is the soul a life form? If yes, then is god a life form? If it is a life form can it be everlasting and/or eternal? Round n Round we go.That's like asking whether a unicorn is a mammal - isn't it? True to an atheist. But if there ever were unicorns, they are now extinct and obviously not immortal (unless their souls dwell in heaven). The question is to theist who claim that god is immortal and that after we die we can have a life after death and dwell in the house of god. My question was about the physics of such a system.... 8-/
Hello Cap’t Jack
RE: Post #74
In the last year many history timelines have been changed. Some by over a hundred thousand years. I do not trust any of them at this time. It will take a few years before we have a really good timeline. Which is good, because the different fields of science are becoming more inline with each other now.
This is what I use in my research.
71,000 BC was a human bottleneck and a six year nuclear winter.
This is easy, Mount Toba.
This leaves us with a population of 10,000 breeding humans, or 26,000 humans on earth.
Use this as the datum point. Its ash went around the world and is used as a timeline.
This datum point puts the humans in a small band of land or what the scientist say are islands of populations. As the earths temperature warmed the populations expanded. These islands of man and animals expanded.
The next big point is that India had to be one of the main islands of mankind.
Domesticated animals and selectively farmed grains plus fruits and vegetables came from India.
Dr. Premendra Priyadarshi,
Of Mice and Men: DNA, Archaeological and Linguistic correlation of the two linked journeys of mice and men.
Abstract:
The domestic mouse and the house rat are two human commensal species which originated in India. The domestication of the two had occurred in India before they migrated out about 15,000 and 20,000 years back respectively. It is generally held that these species migrated with farming related human migrations. The DNA analysis of the mice (Mus musculus) informs us that the domesticus subspecies left India, entered Iran, reached West Asia and from there Southeast Europe. The other sub-species musculus musculus entered Central Asia from India to disperse in the Russian steppe and further west.
So not only did the people in the Indus Valley create cereal grains which can take twenty thousands years of selective farming but there is the data now the house mice and rats that evolved to live off of these grains and the humans discards had also developed in India.
Now look at the data that shows that Indian proto-farmers started migration at 20,000 ybp. And the mice would have left with shipments of grain trade. Europe was coming out of a cold cycle about 14,000 ybp.
I should note, that the chicken came out of India at this time and was used though out
Europe, but no large egg or chicken farms have been found until the Hyksos went to Egypt around 1700 BC. The technology need for hatcheries came much latter in time with the Asians.
Now, Cap’t Jack , once you have made a list of all the fruit, vegetable and animals that came out of India and a time of when they left India along with a list of how long it took the items to be cultivated from the wild to the domestic stage.
Next look at the money system and the language the people used – Asian.
The archaeologist in Egypt uses the seeds of the plants brought by the Hyksos as a timeline in digging.
I think you will start realizing that the dates on the information you are referring to comes from some PHD’s that got a free vacation to roam around sites in India. They published what was safe and on the surface. The real archaeology has not yet taken place.
Cap’t Jack you bring up a very good subject in the “The Epic of Gilgamesh", almost every top scholar on the subject agrees that the religions of Ur and Sumer comes from an older religions and beliefs that have not been fully explained why they are not recorded or what changed to make them appear to have the need to built a new religion upon an older ones.
Next you ask about the fruits and nuts. Just follow the DNA.
On the Hyksos in Egypt, there is no evidence that the Hyksos were driven out. The Hyksos left after two hundred years and Moses did not leave until four hundred years latter. Most agree that the Hyksos left because of leprosy.
What we may find once the digging starts is that Goshen was part of the Asian trade group and will go back thousands of years before the 1700 BC. Question is will they find settlement before the flood?
We may have to change our thinking a little bit. You’re looking for big stone building, like in Egypt and places. Egypt itself did not start building in stone until after the flood.
Not all powers require big stone building, just look at Russia, a hundred year ago, half the population of Europe and very few big stone building.
Sky burial, is still used today, burial can tell us some things about the people. The Canaan People used Sky Burials that was connected to the India methods, where as some American Indians use sky burials that were not connected. It has to do with religion.
As far as being used in Ancient Egypt, we do not yet know. The diggings at Avaris are just starting. From the religious point, Sky Burials allowed your spirit to rise. The Egyptians had doors in the graves so the spirit could rise.
The flood, every civilization that had recording in that time period, including Mexico, South America and if I remember right about thirty civilizations total had recorded a major event that started on May 10th, 2807 BC. Check out this website.
http://www.lawrencehallofscience.org/gss/uptodate/10acc/index.html
Glad you ask some questions,
Mike