The god thingy, Actually I like that title. It disconnects Original Causality from any humanlike attributes. I don't think anyone would dispute that there was an Original Causality, but to give this Causality any kind of human emotional attributes is preposterous, IMO.It's definitely a "thingy", not something well defined. The physics underlying creation are important, but I define "god" as a concept that arose out of other reasoning capabilities that we developed. Everything from an overactive agent detection to a place holder for things we don't yet understand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlAQLgTwJ_A&t=13sI was turned off when I heard him ask the cliché question "are we alone in the universe?" He knows we are NOT alone. He Knows that. We are not alone on Earth. There are millions of insects, millions of fish, 1000's of animals, the Alien Grays are living under ground, etc. But in regard to the Universe, which is billions of billions of billions times bigger than Earth? we are alone. Yeah, right. Same dough, different day, different place. Next. This is how you guys discredit yourselves. You do because you want to please those who are pulling your strings from upstairs. You cannot have it both ways.
This is how you guys discredit yourselves. You do because you want to please those who are pulling your strings from upstairs. You cannot have it both ways.What are you talking about? What both ways?
Jesus never existed - its all made up and nothing to do with historyYes he did exist. His body is buried in Srinagar, INDIA. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Tomb-Raider-Jesus-buried-in-Srinagar/articleshow/5906304.cms "The Unknown life of Jesus Christ" by Nicholas Notovitch, which is a translation of Buddhist text relating the life of Jesus when he run out of Israel after surviving the crucifixion details how he ended up there. Also, Kirsten Kulger in his "Jesus lived in India" tracked him down and ended up the same way. The Shroud of Turin markings coincide with marks put on the feet side of the grave indicating that the person buried there has undergone a Crucifixtion. Nicholas Notovitch spoke to a Vatican Bishop that told him that the Vatican has no less than 68 documents that prove that!!! The Vatican wanted to kill the poor guy in trying to get him to tell them the name of the Bishop but he never did. Etc, Etc, Etc. There is PLENTY of Reliable Evidence that Generously documents the Authenticity of the Existence of Jesus The Christ. Go after the Vatican, these criminals Know aaaaaall about it. Also the above article claims this: "The Quran, where Jesus is called Messiah — the Messenger, maintains that Christ was returned to God alive and not crucified". And that is TOTALLY FALSE. The coran does no such thing. It talks about Jesus being a just a man and Judas Escariot is the one who was crucified in Jesus place. It says no such thing as he "flying in the air". The criminal Vatican is not saying anything about this because probably for 2 reasons: 1/- The way things are now is Mega money maker for them. If they peep a single sound, that will cause the money river to vacuum out. 2/- if they confirmed that, it will make them for the con artists they always have been and they still are. Not to mention that that will irrevocably make their World Empire crumble over night.
I can see you have a little trouble with English, but how do you butcher a name that bad?
Boris, I understand your view point. The bible is made up of many stories. Some for the Greeks way of thinking. Some for the Egyptian thinking and some for Jewish way of thinking. This could only be done if all the religion thinking had many common factors. Religions evolved but kept most of the common factors. And I agree that the pathway in earlier stages of evolving has the Zoroastrian thinking. The Egyptian not so much but its base was still coming from India, just like the Zoroastrians. In my view Jesus wanted to do some cleaning up much of the confusion caused by evolution of religion by his pre-Zoroastrianism Gnostic views that were common at that time in India. Most of Jesus’s Gnostic thinking did not make the bible. What Gnostic thinking that is in the bible is not understood today unless you understand the Gnostic thinking. And most of the Gnostic that did make the bible was geared toward the Egyptians and not out of the normal understanding by most of the flock. Books have been written about Jesus’s secret teachings. I don’t think they were secret in Jesus’s time. It was that there was not much Egyptian thinking where Paul was preaching. But I think that Paul’s area also had a Zoroastrian base. Christianity could never have developed without the Zoroastrian ideas and beliefs.
InBetween, I have learned to take a lot of what comes out of India today with a grain of salt. There are a thousand branches of religion in India, all trying to say or claim something. I agree the Vatican has and still is doing a cover-up of religion data. But I disagree that any facts will make the Vatican crumble. The Vatican is not built on facts.
My thoughts,
There are many stories about Jesus. Unless the stories make logical sense, they may only hold a small amount of truth as to what we are trying to perceive the ideas of the stories to be. There are many reasons in the past to write stories in different methods to accomplish the goal of writing the story in the first place. Then there is the fact that most stories were verbal stories before becoming written stories. Plus, we have the change in the meanings of words and different meaning of word in different areas.
Today’s understanding of religion is mostly an understanding of belief. To understand history, you must be able to understand the people and methods of the time being looked at. The bible is not a history book. To understand the bible is to understand Paul and a system of religious government.
Jesus is another matter. Many of the real history stories of that time-period have a lot sex or a main hero. They had to be entertaining. The Jesus movement was different, it was a political movement. Jesus’s brothers Simon and James were both killed for political reasons. Hundreds of thousands died or were taken into slavery when the Jewish movement was crushed by the Roman Empire in 132. The question one needs to answer is, was the Jewish movement because god sent the messiah? Or because the Roman army had several military losses and looked weak and had ruler problems at the top? But that is getting ahead on the timeline. Let’s look at Jesus.
Who. Who was Jesus to the people in his time? Jesus was a Jewish high priest, but mostly a political figure.
Why. According to Jesus, there would soon emerge a new phase in world history, one dominated by a renewed Israel with its own king, from the restored Davidic monarchy. Jesus wanted to be that leader.
How. For his political machine to work. Jesus traveled with a hundred backers to get the word out. His followers were to gain power when the twelve tribes and the political rule under the Kingdom of God was restored.
Why. Why didn’t Herod Antipas shut Jesus down? Because there was no King over much of Israel from 4 B.C. until 41 C.E. Herod the Great had died and Roman Emperor Caligula made Agrippa I the King of the Jews and not Antipas. Herod Antipas had tried to get the Roman Emperor Augustus to name him King of the Jews, but failed.
What. What did Jesus want? Jesus wanted to be the priesthood ruler and title of King of the Jews. But would settle for ruling the priesthood. Israel was to be ruled by two rulers, a priest and king. King David held both seats of power. Rome was settling for controlling the king, thus controlling the money and army.
Who. Who kept Jesus alive while he ran for office? Joanna, the ex-wife of Herod Antipas and her husband Chuza was able to keep Antipas away from Jesus. Also involved were Herodias, who was married to her uncle Antipas. She backed Jesus. Bernice had a lover, her brother, Agrippa. She also backed Jesus. We have Herodias, her daughter Salome, Joanna, Livilla, Brenice, and Mary the Magdalene involved in Jesus’s political career. All players in the political arena.
Who. Sejanus, was the man behind the Roman power. Sejanus was a co-conspirator with Herod Antipas against Emperor Tiberius. Pontius Pilate mentor was Sejanus. Sejanus fell from power when Tiberius had him killed for plotting his assassination. Pilate was appointed by Sejanus. Sejanus was married to Livilla’s daughter. The death of Sejanus put Pontius Pilate in a tough spot. Sure, he could kill Jesus now. But he still would have to deal with the political powers of Israel. Rome was not asking for Jesus to be killed. If I was Pilate I would have asked Jesus to have the trial moved to Rome. Jesus’s father was a Roman soldier, Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera, Jesus could have claimed Roman citizenship and had the trial moved to Rome. In doing that, the case would have been thrown out. Rome had no interest in what Jesus was doing. Doing that would have ended his political bid and messed it up for his brothers. If I couldn’t get Jesus to claim citizenship I would have him leave the country and had a stand-in at the crucifixion, if the crucifixion even took place. That way when Emperor Tiberius cleaned out Sejanus’s people, it would not be a reason to boot Pilate. Yes, India would have been the best place for Jesus to go.
The point is that the real power was in Rome. When a power change in Rome took place, the chance of the fallout affecting Israel was real. I remember the first time I heard that Jesus may have gone to India and thinking, wow, there sure are some crazy people thinking some crazy things when is come to religion. Today, when the doubt about the crucifixion is in question. India makes the logical choice for Jesus to travel to for me.
... InBetween, I have learned to take a lot of what comes out of India today with a grain of salt. There are a thousand branches of religion in India, all trying to say or claim something. I agree the Vatican has and still is doing a cover-up of religion data. But I disagree that any facts will make the Vatican crumble. The Vatican is not built on facts. ...Mike, Kirsten Holger is German and Nicholas Notovitch is Russian, neither one of them is Indian. And neither is any of the other authors I read in the past Indian, who ever wrote anything about Jesus. You might be right about the Vatican being built on bs to start with. E. R Chamberlin wrote book titled "The bad popes". In it he discusses 8 of the worst popes ever. In the process he also had to bring up how the Vatican site was picked and how St Peter square etc. were built. He claim it's built on top of a pagan graveyard. He said they tried to clean it, but it was too over whelming. So they filled in the back then shrines and tombs with dirt, rocks and what not, til the whole thing was flattened for the site to be readied for the building to commence. They even stole marble blocks from the pagan shrines and temples they destroyed and used them to build their crap!!! And today, you see them being aaaaall theatric about "being holy" and blessing this and that, etc. What a Scam!!! I read that book a while back so I don't remember the details but it was very thorough book. ON the other hand, the catholic church has lost Europe or a good part of it at least already. Especially with the little bitch who is heading it right now, being all about promoting Muslimism ON BROAD DAY LIGHT!! Last Time I went there, went to Mass, there were 5 people at the front pew of one of the most beautiful cathedrals I have ever seen. 5 people. So I am afraid the crumbling has already begun. Also with what is going on with savages invading Europe, I came across reading instances where Catholic churches in Europe got to the point where they were renting their facilities to the Muslim to worship in them!!!! And if they make the announcement themselves about Jesus having survived the crucifixtion, it will most certainly be devastating. Considering that admitting that Jesus never in fact ascended to the skies as they originally claimed. Once the mystic evaporates, there will be nothing left for them to keep "the faithful" chained. That added to the problems they have with pedophilia, investing in weapons, birth control pills, etc., the movement dubbed "the great replacement" that is currently underway. Things look tragic. And that in itself is The Tragedy of all tragedies. Jesus gave them a Beautiful OUT-OF-THIS-WORLD Ferrari, and these criminal scumbags turned it into rusted, filthy and vermin infested wreck.
That is the most rambling nonsensical post I have seen in a while InBetween. It’s the kind of response I would make up if someone asked me something nutty, like Mike does all the time, and I just wanted to double down on the batty-ness and see how far he’d go with it.
So, Jesus was real, and created a church, and lived, but all the documents used to continue on that church say he died, and the Vatican knows this but isn’t saying because, I don’t know, I lost you at that point.
InBetween,
When you were in Europe did you see the Europeans looking at religion differently than us Americans?
As far as the crucifixion, Flavius Josephus was a historian born in Jerusalem of priestly descent and royal blood and was a young child when Jesus was still alive and claimed that “Which political crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth brought down the vengeance of God upon them …" and “…. Thirty-eight years afterwards. I heartily wish the politicians of Christendome would consider these and the like examples, and no longer sacrifice all virtue and religion to their pernicious schemes of government, to the bringing down the judgement of God upon themselves, and the several nations entrusted to their care."
Josephus is saying that the crucifixion took place. But he was a young child at the time. So, maybe a stand-in could have taken place. But he does back up the point that Jesus’s crucifixion was political.
May I suggest not getting to annoyed by the church. Life is to short, enjoy it. The reason is, when you view the timeline of religion. It goes back into pre-history. Therefore, we must look at graves to see if religion existed. And sure enough, the graves show that religion goes back a couple hundred thousand years. When we look at the past religion we see no signs of deities. Religion consisted of heaven and afterlife or reincarnation. And those religions are still with us today. The religions with deities are easy to date because they started with animal and planets. Then evolved to part animal and part human deities. Ending up with human deities. Deities have only been part of religion for 5% of the time that humans have had religion.
God is nothing more than some form of knowledge or controlling some form of knowledge. As knowledge has moved from the church to other institutions, the church has less power. Afterlife and wanting to live forever is built in the human genes. Until we start changing the genes of humans, religion is here to stay. We could still get rid of the deities, they really are not needed by most of the educated people.
Josephus is an interpolation
there is no authentic record of Jesus or the story from the 1st Century
Review The Testimonium Flavianum at Josephus' Account of Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum
Some of the new thinking put the date in the first century. And gives Josephus credit for some of the writing. Recently Professor Helmut Koester of Harvard University has suggested that the collection of sayings in the Gospel of Thomas, although compiled c. 140, may include some traditions even older than the gospels of the New Testament, “possibly as early as the second half of the first century” (50-100)–as early as, or earlier, than Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John.
Were you following the Nag Hammadi findings? Remember the dates were of major concerns. It seemed like they would change the date about every month and keep moving the dates of the original texts back in time. I bring this up because it puts Josephus work in line with the other works of the time. The works are updated and added to over time.
Philo Judeaus and Justus of Tiberius were in that place and at that time the whole Jesus fairy tale is set.
Neither Justus nor Philo wrote one single solitary word of Jesus or that fairy tale story.
Not one single writer or historian wrote a single word about Jesus or that absurd story.
Therefore it is all made up. Therefore it is all lies.
If any of it happened someone would have written about it - certainly someone there at that time. But no - Nothing.
InBetween, When you were in Europe did you see the Europeans looking at religion differently than us Americans?I have not been all over Europe but where I was, I believe so. Only the really old timers still go to Church. I went to Church on Sunday once, and, again, the Beautiful Astounding Church where Mass was held was full of mostly the Grey headed. And beside, one does not have to go beyond what Europe endured during the Inquisition to guess why they disconnected themselves from religion. Who would blame them?!?!?
As far as the crucifixion, Flavius Josephus was a historian born in Jerusalem of priestly descent and royal blood and was a young child when Jesus was still alive and claimed that “Which political crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth brought down the vengeance of God upon them …" and “…. Thirty-eight years afterwards. I heartily wish the politicians of Christendome would consider these and the like examples, and no longer sacrifice all virtue and religion to their pernicious schemes of government, to the bringing down the judgement of God upon themselves, and the several nations entrusted to their care."What he is saying happened is all over the OT as well. As they say "History repeats itself". I come across his name a lot but never really read a book of him or about him. What would you recommend as far as reading in his regard?
Josephus is saying that the crucifixion took place. But he was a young child at the time. So, maybe a stand-in could have taken place. But he does back up the point that Jesus’s crucifixion was political.Yeah, it is political. And again the NT attests to that. I would recommend you get hold of Hulger's book. It's extremely thorough honest book. Check him out, you'd be surprised. He covered the entire thing from side to side, inside out and back: Great Document!!!
May I suggest not getting to annoyed by the church. Life is to short, enjoy it. The reason is, when you view the timeline of religion. It goes back into pre-history. Therefore, we must look at graves to see if religion existed. And sure enough, the graves show that religion goes back a couple hundred thousand years. When we look at the past religion we see no signs of deities. Religion consisted of heaven and afterlife or reincarnation. And those religions are still with us today. The religions with deities are easy to date because they started with animal and planets. Then evolved to part animal and part human deities. Ending up with human deities. Deities have only been part of religion for 5% of the time that humans have had religion.Christianity is not a religion but a mind set, a state of soul one is supposed to work to bring themselves to in order to ascent to the next level of the soul's education and evolution. These criminal scam artists turned it into a conman's perverted vice, a charade, even a brothel. I am agnostic at this point. So to me Christianity is Most Legitimate and will always be. Just because bunch of criminal gangsters got hold of it does not for the least diminish it in any way. The Nobility, Authenticity and Truth are still within, around, above and beneath it.
God is nothing more than some form of knowledge or controlling some form of knowledge. As knowledge has moved from the church to other institutions, the church has less power. Afterlife and wanting to live forever is built in the human genes. Until we start changing the genes of humans, religion is here to stay. We could still get rid of the deities, they really are not needed by most of the educated people.I believe in reincarnation. Again Jesus Taught it, and one of yours, Dr. Ian Stevenson, a psychiatrist, did extensive research on it using the scientific method, and in doing so, he confirmed the reincarnation of no less than 2000 souls. When I was around 2, 3 years old or maybe even less, I used to have flashes of how I died in my previous life under the form of "nightmares". At the time, my mom used to think I was possessed or I was having bad dreams. But Now I know there were flashes of the same sequence of how I died. There is not a single doubt in my mind about that. There is some universal hierarchy for sure. I had experiences with Jesus, Also, with the name of Michael the Archangel. I researched him and it turned out that 7th day Adventist and Jehovah's Witness believe that Michael is non other than Jesus, as Michael which means "he who is like God" is another Title of Jesus. Etc. And I am nobody. Nothing special happened in my life that would warrant the enfolding of such events. We are primarily SOULS. And we do survive what some refer to as "death". There is no hell either. The Cult invented that to terrorize the "faithful" into full submission to these criminals. And it works like a Swiss watch.
Jesus never existed
Jesus never existedWho cares? It's never the messenger, but the the message that counts. I say this witout prejudice, but the obsession with the life of this guy or that guy is secondary to the legacy they leave. Is the world a better place now than it was then because someone said something profound or silly. Look around and see what all this religious fervor has brought down upon the civilization of mankind and respect for the earth which is mother and goddess to us all.
The message is pure Zoroastrianism and all who follow the god of the Jews Christians and Muslims are in fact Zoroastrians
The message is pure Zoroastrianism and all who follow the god of the Jews Christians and Muslims are in fact Zoroastrians
In Zoroastrian tradition, life is a temporary state in which a mortal is expected to actively participate in the continuing battle between truth and falsehood.I can get with that as a secular tenet.
In Zoroastrian cosmogony, water and fire are respectively the second and last primordial elements to have been created, and scripture considers fire to have its origin in the waters.Which is a falsehood. Although the secular concepts of water as a source of life sustaining substance is true. And by secular standards fire is a very practical aspect of survival. The point I am trying to make that one can find some truth in all religions, but also falsehood (even if unintended). It is when a religion proclaims exclusive truth and becomes "exclusive" of other religions that problems arise. In that respect, as atheist, I can admire Buddhism which is an inclusive secular philosophy as long as a person tries to retain a balance with his environment, which by Nature brings both joy and sorrow.
Practices of Buddhism include taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha, study of scriptures, observance of moral precepts, renunciation of craving and attachment, the practice of meditation (including calm and insight), the cultivation of wisdom, loving-kindness and compassionBut even there sects developed wich caused loss of insight in the basic secular tenets. Thus as atheist I can still learn from some of the good contained in all scripture, but without belief in a "special" status in the world. IMO, all life that exists today is worthy of respect to have made it this far and should be respected for their own "special" status in the natural world. But I, like anyone else that ever lived, have my flaws and can only hope to be remembered by my good deeds and be forgiven for my mistakes by the people who were affected by my mistakes, which were never meant to do intentional harm. My fundamental belief is taken from the medical tenet "first try to do no harm" in all things.
Buddhism is a Greek religion very close to Zoroastrianism
Buddhism is a Greek religion very close to ZoroastrianismOh come on. Where did you get that. You lose credibility saying stuff like that.
Buddhism is a Greek religion very close to ZoroastrianismOh come on. Where did you get that. You lose credibility saying stuff like that. It happens to be the truth Alexander the Great established colonies that were in the east for centuries and the Greeks became interested in Buddhism and joined and contributed Greek religions to Buddhism. The first statues of Buddha were carved by ancient Greeks - the Bactrian Buddhas Stone Statues from a Buddhist monastery 700 AD, Afghanistan. Statue from a Buddhist monastery 700 AD, Afghanistan. Bactria was under direct Greek control for more than two centuries from the conquests of Alexander the Great in 332 BC to the end of the Greco-Bactrian kingdom . It happens to be the truth