How do you define atheism for your purposes?

Humanism
41

It isn’t just Catholics who believe in the virgin birth. Most, if not all, Christians believe in the virgin birth. I was just making a distinction between the conception of Jesus and the conception of Mary. Many people make the same error, even some Catholics. The Feast of the Immaculate Conception is celebrated in the Roman Catholic Church on December 8th.

“The Immaculate Conception is commonly confused with the virgin birth of Jesus, the latter being, rather, the doctrine of the Incarnation. While virtually all Christians believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, it is principally Roman Catholics, along with various other Christian denominations, who believe in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

“Although the belief that Mary was sinless, or conceived without original sin, has been widely held since Late Antiquity, the doctrine was not dogmatically defined in the Catholic Church until 1854 when Pope Pius IX, declared ex cathedra, i.e., using papal infallibility, in his papal bull Ineffabilis Deus, the Immaculate Conception to be doctrine. The Catholic Church celebrates the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conceptionon December 8; in many Catholic countries, it is a holy day of obligation or patronal feast, and in some a national public holiday.”

I was raised a Catholic and still remember a lot of the doctrine, though I’ve been an atheist all of my adult life. I did not realize until many years after I had left the church that the Immaculate Conception was a Catholic concept and not a part of most Protestant theologies.

 

 

 

42
LoisL: "The Immaculate Conception had nothing to do with Mary’s conception of Jesus. Mary is the one who was said to have been conceived “immaculately”, which means without original sin. The church couldn’t have a woman with sin on her soul giving birth to Jesus, so, abra cadabra, she was miraculously conceived without original sin."
I am confused. If god impregnating a woman is immaculate conception, then both Mary and her kid were immaculately conceived… right?

My genetics is foggy, but I think that would that make Mary’s DNA 50% god’s, and Jesus’s 75% god’s.

43

“I am confused. If god impregnating a woman is immaculate conception, then both Mary and her kid were immaculately conceived… right?”

No,no and no.

I’l repeat what has been said at least twice; In catholic dogma, the phrase ‘immaculate conception’ HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE VIGIN CONCEPTION OF JESUS". The term has a very specific meaning: it means MARY WAS CONCEIVED [by her mother] FREE FROM ORIGINAL SIN" Period.

Mary is called 'the virgin mother of Jesus, because she was miraculously impregnated by GOD. She remained a virgin once she was pregnant. Catholics maintain she remained a virgin for the rest of her life. Most protestant churches claim that Mary had several more children. These were conceived in the normal way with her husband Joseph. Hence she did not remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus, when she had sex with her husband , Joseph .

Mary’s status of “the immaculate conception” never changed, because it refers to her own conception, and her being without original sin at HER conception.

I should point out that this is a nineteen the century invention of thew Catholic church, and is not generally accepted by protestants, as far as I know. Protestant churches DO believe Mary was virgin, impregnated miraculously by God. She was even told by the angel Gabriel. That event is called"The Annunciation". (by Catholics)

Luke 1:26-38

" In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High,[a] and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.” 34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”[b] 35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God."

 

PS: like a great deal in the New Testament, I think that passage is pure invention.

44

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter” (Thomas Jefferson, 1823).

45
Most, if not all, Christians believe in the virgin birth.
Those numbers are shrinking fast. Pew Poll:
Today, 66% of Americans say they believe Jesus was born to a virgin, down from 73% in 2014. Likewise, 68% of U.S. adults now say they believe that the wise men were guided by a star and brought gifts for baby Jesus, down from 75%. And there are similar declines in the shares of Americans who believe that Jesus' birth was heralded by an angel of the Lord and that Jesus was laid in a manger as an infant.
More important, pastors are saying it. Officially though, in faith statements or whatever documents an organization has, they still say it.
46
PatrickD: " No,no and no. I’l repeat what has been said at least twice; In catholic dogma, the phrase ‘immaculate conception’ HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE VIGIN CONCEPTION OF JESUS”. The term has a very specific meaning: it means MARY WAS CONCEIVED [by her mother] FREE FROM ORIGINAL SIN” Period."
Oops. I honestly always thought that Jesus was the immaculate conception and Mary was just the lucky lady to be impregnated by God. And I never knew Mary's conception was special in any way.

I guess, as a kid, I got the stories mixed up and never had anyone tell me different.

47

Lois asked: Can you be more specific about superstitious behaviors in non-human animals?

TimB: I think u asked that and I gave a VERY specific answer in another thread, but if u insist, I will try again.

48

Lois I never heard the story that u present about immaculate conception referencing Mary and not Jesus. If that is the actual Catholic dogma, then I am glad to have learned it. But it doesn’t completely make sense (in an internal validity sort of way). If Jesus is the Son of God, sure it is fine that Mary is sinless. But if she got knocked up by a man, then Jesus is not the son of God, he just has a particularly holy mother. I am going to have to check this out.

49

You can check it out here:

 

It was an attempt bt the Church to rescue itself from an irrational idea.

For the record, I do not believe in original sin* the immaculate conception, the virgin birth or that Jesus was the son of god, nor that he was resurrected after his death.

*The concept of original sin is irrational on its face (as is the idea of Jesus as the son of god). But the so-called Immaculate Conception was a way for the church to wriggle out of yet another logic trap that it created. Original sin is an irrational concept, as is the concept of any kid of sin.

Sin is something dreamed up by theistic religions millennia before Jesus was dreamed up. It is a false concept.

 

50

Ok so it seems to me that the Roman Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary (as u have described) but they ALSO believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus.

I have nothing against Mary. I can imagine that she was very nice. But she probably committed what would be considered a sin at times. Like getting pregnant out of wedlock, and saying it was God that did it, for example.

51

TimB

 

But she probably committed what would be considered a sin at times. Like getting pregnant out of wedlock, and saying it was God that did it, for example.

That’s one way. But what do you say about a god who impregnates a child? According to scripture Mary was 14 years old when she conceived Jesus, if you accept the Christian myth, god was a child molester.

52

@LoisL

On the money I think.

My favourite believer is Bishop John Spong. He says “religions are in the guilt and control game”.

Spong also points out the notion of an eternal hell is a christian invention. I’ve done some checking. Eternal hell does not exist in Judaism. Their version is indeed a place pf punishment. The longest anyone stays is TWO YEARS.

The notion of an eternal hell did not exit in first century christianity. It began with the vague Roman concept of the afterlife. It developed into a place of eternal torment over a couple of hundred years. One of the more unattractive qualities of believers I’ve run across is the gleeful schadenfreude they show towards people they consider damned.

I left the Catholic church at age 20 because of their more fatuous beliefs; EG original sin, virgin birth, transubstantiation, infallibility of the pope, limbo, exclusive, absolute truth, (that all protestants were going to hell) ----you get the idea I’m sure.

Below, 3 minute clip from John Spong. He has lots of clips on Youtube, and has written a couple of Times best selling books. ( I haven’t read them)

53

Lois said: … what do you say about a god who impregnates a child? According to scripture Mary was 14 years old when she conceived Jesus, if you accept the Christian myth, god was a child molester.

TimB: Eek! Makes u wonder about Jesus when he said, “Suffer the little children to come unto me.”

54

@TimB

I lean towards moral relativism. I’m unconvinced it’s reasonable to judge the morality of 200o years ago with modern day values.

In many ancient, and relatively recent societies, people traditionally married at puberty. I guess partly due to low life expectancy. Hardly child molestation. The prize for that goes to Muhammud and his 8 year old wife.

Up to the beginning of the twentieth century, the age of consent was 12 years, in the US, UK, and many European countries. It was 12 in Oz until about 1920.

 

The whole virgin pregnancy reeks of BS. In context, her betrothed, Joseph would have repudiated her. There is a persistent legend that Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier.

 

55

PatrickD said

 

In many ancient, and relatively recent societies, people traditionally married at puberty. I guess partly due to low life expectancy. Hardly child molestation. The prize for that goes to Muhammud and his 8 year old wife.

Nevertheless, Mary was not god’s wife, nor his betrothed.

 

The whole virgin pregnancy reeks of BS. In context, her betrothed, Joseph would have repudiated her.

Yes, but they’ve got that covered, “an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.”

And he bought it, hook line and sinker.

56

I agree on being careful about judging ppl of the past by our current day values. Their contingencies were different, even to the extent we can safely assume, in critical ways.

With my most up to date values, I would be compelled to believe Mary’s story (fantastical tho it seemed) since my values are influenced by the Me Too movement. The woman must be believed. But maybe they had a similar value in pre New Testament times.

57

“The woman must be believed. But maybe they had a similar value in pre New Testament times.”

I don’t think so. I think mens’ claims took precedent.

If you look at the full 613 commandments which make up Mosaic law*, you will intrigued to note the similarity of Sharia law, as it is today. The Jews moved on, the Muslims, (IE the mall minority who practice Sharia law) not so much.

EG If a woman complains of rape, she can be accused of adultery. ( In Saudi Arabia, where it is a stoning offence )

I think this may still be the case in Malaysia; where a couple divorced, the husband ALWAYS got full custody of any children. There was an infamous a case here in South Australia, about 20 years ago; a local TV journalist married a Malay Prince. They divorced. He smuggled the children out of Australia. Our courts demanded the children be returned. Malay courts told them to get stuffed. Neither of the children saw their mother again for ten years. As soon as they turned 18, they both returned to Australia.

In Judaisms there is a traditional morning blessing praising God “who has not made me a women”.

An eye opener; When I was last in Kuala Lumpa, at my hotel, in the lift; young bloke, dressed casually in sacks and short sleeved shirt. He . was accompanied by this figure, enclosed in black, only her hands and eyes showing. They went outside, the black figure trotted along three paces behind .It was 90 Fahrenheit, with very high humidity. To be fair the concierge saw the look on my face and was embarrassed. He explained that the pair were not locals but" from one of the gulf states". I muttered something about it not being any of my business, and left…

58

The conception of Jesus is called Incarnation, a different concept altogether from “Immaculate Conception”, even though Jesus is said to have been also conceived without original sin. But in the case of Jesus, god was the baby daddy.

 

Lois

59

PatrickD wrote

I left the Catholic church at age 20 because of their more fatuous beliefs; EG original sin, virgin birth, transubstantiation, infallibility of the pope, limbo, exclusive, absolute truth, (that all protestants were going to hell) ----you get the idea I’m sure.

<b>I had a similar awakening. </b>

 

<b>Lois</b>

 

60

@LoisL

The man and god dichotomy, which nearly caused my head to explode at 14:

IF Jesus were man, he would sin, by definition. If he were sinless, he could not be called man.

IF he were god, he would be sinless, perfect. If he committed sin, he would be imperfect, and could not be called God.

A long time ago, but pretty sure I received a stock answer number 1 to hard questions from one of the good brothers; “It’s a mystery of faith, we just believe it” Of course, that didn’t sit well with this little black duck. I knew better than to argue. If you did that, you got reply number 2: “you’re full of spiritual pride”. Those two responses were meant to cover everything.When they didn’t you got belted for being a know-all.

The good brothers were the very soul of reason compared with my chronically Irish Catholic father. ( he never hit, he just yelled and called you stupid. My father was a crunt)