The people working in the fast food industry are not “kicking rocks”. They’re human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting. They’re striking in New York city, a city where the basic cost of living for a family of four is $93,500 New York City has highest cost of living in U.S. for families: report – New York Daily News. Fifty, forty hour weeks at $7.50 is $15,000 one sixth of that amount, and $15/ hour is only about $30,000. The workers are not even asking for a living wage, at least not in New York city. Sure, where I live $15/hr would be very good money for unskilled work, but I’m a long way from New York.
The people working in the fast food industry are not "kicking rocks". They're human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.Again, it's an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That's fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that's fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let's not disguise this as something else. And let's also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good.
Cloak, comparing someone providing a valid service to someone performing a pointless task is a poor analogy to illustrate your point with. You seem to believe that the market should be allowed to place people who perform a needed task, reasonable competently, in a position of penury; that those people shouldn’t have the right, or, at least, are somehow immoral for trying to bargain for a fair wage. You also seem to believe that there may be drastic consequences for society if this is not allowed to occur.
I don’t think you’re right, and I don’t think history agrees with you. In the U.S., before the Civil War the South was far poorer than the north, even though it had an extreme form of what you are proposing. Even after the war during the Jim Crow era, much of the south remained a economic wasteland compared to the north. It was a very productive era in America during the 1950s and 60s when there was a much smaller divide between the working class and the wealthy. I believe that most of Europe has greater economic equality, and by many measures a higher standard of living. There is a very strong argument to be made that underpaying labor is very damaging to societies.
On the other hand, should free market forces allow someone possess infinite wealth? Bloated executive salaries may well have a damaging effect on the economy. Are the CEO’s making hundreds of millions really worth that sort of cost to society? How do you evaluate the worth of a man like Donald Trump who has run a number of businesses into bankruptcy? Many of these people are clearly asking for more than their market value. Are you outraged by this, too? Or, at the other end of the scale, is the proper attitude, “If they can get it, they must be worth it”? If that’s so, why are the wealthy so privileged but not the poor?
What are some thoughts on these revolutionary brothers and sisters? (sarcasm)I'd need to know if $15 dollars an hour is an amount of money that people can live on up to standards they can reasonable aspire to? If it isn't then I'm on their side and I think we should all be. Perhaps it is I dunno? Stephen
The people working in the fast food industry are not "kicking rocks". They're human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting. They're striking in New York city, a city where the basic cost of living for a family of four is $93,500 http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-tops-new-living-expenses-article-1.1390134. Fifty, forty hour weeks at $7.50 is $15,000 one sixth of that amount, and $15/ hour is only about $30,000. The workers are not even asking for a living wage, at least not in New York city. Sure, where I live $15/hr would be very good money for unskilled work, but I'm a long way from New York.Thanks for the information Jeciron. I'm staggered that anyone is arguing that they are being unreasonable. There is no need for this excessive inequality in our societies. Stephen
Cloak, comparing someone providing a valid service to someone performing a pointless task is a poor analogy to illustrate your point with.Give me a break. You're not even trying. The job is only "pointless" if someone is not willing to pay you money for it. Stop focusing on how you feel about the activity and listen to what I've been trying to tell you: it is about the market value of your skillset. That is it. If you are poor, and have no other options, then kicking that freaking rock is about survival. If you are determined, you will also figure something out and find a way. Until then, in the meantime, if you are smart, you will shut up and kick that rock so you can feed your family today. Sure, you can try to bargain for more money. But you need to be very careful in your negotiations, because there's always the possibility that the "employer" may say, "Ya know, screw this, there's someone down the road who will do this thing for much less." You can call him immoral as much as you want, but he didn't have to offer you anything in the first place.
You seem to believe that the market should be allowed to place people who perform a needed task, reasonable competently, in a position of penury; that those people shouldn't have the right, or, at least, are somehow immoral for trying to bargain for a fair wage. You also seem to believe that there may be drastic consequences for society if this is not allowed to occur.I never said anything about it being "immoral" for someone to try to bargain for a bigger cut. I've argued consistently that the laborer has that right, just as much as the employer. The problem is that its you who are trying to say that the guy who chooses not to give the laborer more free stuff is immoral. And yes, in negotiations, there can always be unintended consequences. Those should always be considered in the negotiation. The truth is that there are many low skilled employees who cost their employers far more than the value they bring, yet the employers, OUT OF SHEER GOOD WILL eat the costs and keep them there, usually because they know that firing them could really hurt that individual. Do you know what happens when those employers are told to pay this worker even more, or to offer him higher benefits? That's when the employer has to let him go and assign his tasks among those who are remaining. What you people fail to recognize is that there are many people that are being allowed to remain in their job positions simply because the employer doesn't have it in his/her heart to let that person go. Nobody ever considers this aspect. What's ironic is that the majority of you know just those kinds of people. Instead, we continue to push and push for more free stuff, not realizing that there could be adverse effects.
I don't think you're right, and I don't think history agrees with you. In the U.S., before the Civil War the South was far poorer than the north, even though it had an extreme form of what you are proposing. Even after the war during the Jim Crow era, much of the south remained a economic wasteland compared to the north. It was a very productive era in America during the 1950s and 60s when there was a much smaller divide between the working class and the wealthy. I believe that most of Europe has greater economic equality, and by many measures a higher standard of livingBy "many measures" a higher standard of living? Not sure about that one. If that's the case, then Europeans wouldn't have been rushing to come live over here. In reality, the "standard of living" issue is a very complex one, and depending on who's performing the study and what that study is particularly focused on, you will get different answers. Some even say that we have a higher standard of living than in Europe. But really, even if you're right, I don't care about any of that. My main concern is for the little guy that you are claiming to want to help, because whenever "free stuff" policies get enacted, it's the little guy that tends to get hit the hardest.
There is a very strong argument to be made that underpaying labor is very damaging to societies.If by "underpaying", you mean "below one's market value", I can understand that. However, that doesn't appear to be what's happening here. What people are doing is asking to be paid far above their market value. Completely different situation.
On the other hand, should free market forces allow someone possess infinite wealth? Bloated executive salaries may well have a damaging effect on the economy. Are the CEO's making hundreds of millions really worth that sort of cost to society? How do you evaluate the worth of a man like Donald Trump who has run a number of businesses into bankruptcy? Many of these people are clearly asking for more than their market value. Are you outraged by this, too? Or, at the other end of the scale, is the proper attitude, "If they can get it, they must be worth it"? If that's so, why are the wealthy so privileged but not the poor?I don't know much about Donald Trump, or exactly how he obtained his fortune. Personally, I think he's a prick. But if he got where he is through honest hard work, then that's his thing. And if you are concerned about people making "infinite wealth" and "bloated salaries", then ask the government to stop favoring rich people over everyone else and even the playing field by backing off. It is the policies of your "heroes" that tends to allow certain classes of people to have unfair advantages. Wasn't it you just a couple of posts earlier, who was complaining about "corporate welfare"? If so, I agree wholeheartedly.
The people working in the fast food industry are not "kicking rocks". They're human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.Again, it's an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That's fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that's fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let's not disguise this as something else. And let's also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good. Who's to say what their market value is? (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay). What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn't afford the market value of gasoline. How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not market value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them? Lois
The people working in the fast food industry are not "kicking rocks". They're human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.Again, it's an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That's fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that's fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let's not disguise this as something else. And let's also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good. Who's to say what their market value is? (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay). What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn't aford the market value of gasoline. How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them? Lois 1. The business owner can indeed whine about it. Sometimes he does. (this usually doesn't fix anything, so after he's done, he moves on to rest of his options, unlike some other people) 2. He can go to a competitor (if there is one available). 3. If there is no competitor, he can take a look at the option of cutting costs in order to stay in business while still making a reasonable profit. (of course, his employees may suffer and whine about it, but they've gotta follow the same list of options that he does). 4. If that's not possible, he can quit the business and try something different. Any questions?
Who's to say what their market value is? (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay). What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn't aford the market value of gasoline. How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them? LoisLois, you have a few "collegiates" here who are trying to explain the market value of labor using analogies that are base-level. The simplicity of their analogies is an indicator of their poor grasp on these type values, not on their impetus to explain something simply. That is the main issue. One analogy used was comparing these market dynamics to trading "bottled faucet water for a car." or "kicking rocks around". The market value of labor is a quantifiable dynamic. However it is not a market dynamic that can be explained by using "Lemonade Stand economics". For example, what happens to the market value of labor if 15,000 McDs employees suddenly became unionized? What happened in the 1930s when 10s of thousands of Auto workers became unionized? What became the market value of labor then? What becomes the market value of labor when the US bleeds jobs off-shore by the millions(literally)? The issue is far more complex then using jingoistic analogies that don't even warrant a response!! What is the market value of Labor when a country experiences no meaningful growth in a decade? When maybe that will stretch out to 2 decades? 3? What is the market value of labor in these conditions when the Nasdaq or NYSE experiences record highs? How is that Market Value of Labor explained or quantified?
Wait a minute....so you're telling me that that millions of burger flipping jobs have been outsourced? And who is the cause for this lack of "meaningful growth over the last decade? The guy who is hiring the burger flipper? Maybe it's deeper. Or perhaps the solution IS to give more free stuff to people who aren't likely going to do anything economically productive with it, but squander it away?. I'm guessing that's what fixes economies? Perhaps we should go ask Detroit for more economic advice. But I won't worry about it, because my comment won't "warrant a response" anyways....Who's to say what their market value is? (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay). What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn't aford the market value of gasoline. How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them? LoisLois, you have a few "collegiates" here who are trying to explain the market value of labor using analogies that are base-level. The simplicity of their analogies is an indicator of their poor grasp on these type values, not on their impetus to explain something simply. That is the main issue. One analogy used was comparing these market dynamics to trading "bottled faucet water for a car." or "kicking rocks around". The market value of labor is a quantifiable dynamic. However it is not a market dynamic that can be explained by using "Lemonade Stand economics". For example, what happens to the market value of labor if 15,000 McDs employees suddenly became unionized? What happened in the 1930s when 10s of thousands of Auto workers became unionized? What became the market value of labor then? What becomes the market value of labor when the US bleeds jobs off-shore by the millions(literally)? The issue is far more complex then using jingoistic analogies that don't even warrant a response!! What is the market value of Labor when a country experiences no meaningful growth in a decade? When maybe that will stretch out to 2 decades? 3? What is the market value of labor in these conditions when the Nasdaq or NYSE experiences record highs? How is that Market Value of Labor explained or quantified?
Cloak-Wait a minute....so you're telling me that that millions of burger flipping jobs have been outsourced? And who is the cause for this lack of "meaningful growth over the last decade? The guy who is hiring the burger flipper? Maybe it's deeper.No. What is the market value of burger flipping jobs when millions of other type industry jobs are outsourced? What part of that did you not understand? Did I state that millions of fast food jobs have been outsourced? Can you honestly keep up with this discussion? No you can't. You have dug yourself a jingoistic hole. And now some of us have to suffer through as you yet again modulate your argument to suit points you cannot even make, that aren't relevant to this discussion. Once again, you're over your head. The whole point of this thread was what people think about Fast Food Workers(FFWs) wanting to unionize. Basically your point is that they should accept reality and that they are unskilled peons who don't deserve a raise. Then you went off on an uninformed elementary diatribe about the market value of labor. Using analogies that are too simple for 3rd graders. Why don't you take a shot at my question regarding the market value of labor when 10,000 FFWs become unionized? Use your understanding of the market value of labor to explain the values then. Can you do that? Can you explain the market value of labor when through a process of protest, education, information dissemination and public awareness a certain industry sector's labor base becomes disaffected? Why don't you take a crack at that Cloak. By the way...here's a hint. That's the public, through unions, actively effecting and changing the market value of labor. Try to avoid using analogies like: "Trading bottled faucet water for cars." That don't do to good! Same with imagining a job like "kicking rocks around". Also leave your jingoism and other parroted crap at the door.
The people working in the fast food industry are not "kicking rocks". They're human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.Again, it's an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That's fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that's fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let's not disguise this as something else. And let's also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good. Who's to say what their market value is? (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay). What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn't aford the market value of gasoline. How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them? Lois 1. The business owner can indeed whine about it. Sometimes he does. (this usually doesn't fix anything, so after he's done, he moves on to rest of his options, unlike some other people) 2. He can go to a competitor (if there is one available). 3. If there is no competitor, he can take a look at the option of cutting costs in order to stay in business while still making a reasonable profit. (of course, his employees may suffer and whine about it, but they've gotta follow the same list of options that he does). 4. If that's not possible, he can quit the business and try something different. Any questions? Not at all. But the same goes if he can't afford to pay his workers the price they set for their labor. Any questions?
Jingoism? Really? Did you check that term before you used it? What's next? Hinduism? You should take about an hour and breathe before your next post, friend. Just a suggestion. I asked about burger flipping jobs because that is exactly the particular job I've been talking about the entire time. If you want to ask me something that's irrelevant to my points, then that's your issue. I prefer to stay on topic. As I've said earlier, I am concerned about those people who want to make it out as if the big bad employer is always the evil guy in these transactions. People who want to oversimplify this aspect DO need to be educated on the issue. Secondly, I never said that people can't unionize or that they shouldn't unionize. I think I've been quite consistent with that. And yes, unionizing can play a role in artificially changing the market value. That could be a good or bad thing, but while I've cautioned that unions can potentially become economically stagnating forces (see how teachers unions have practically handcuffed our schools), I've never spoken against unionizing in general. My father was a proud Teamster at UPS, by the way. I've also said that the concerns on both sides are valid. But, I've also said that raising wages can cause some people to get laid off. Do you not realize that the most heavily unionized industries are usually the ones that get automated the fastest? Unions are good, until they overreach. That is why Mike said that unions that get too powerful can be dangerous. I simply concurred with him. Ask the union cashiers who got replaced by self-checkout systems, or perhaps you can ask your auto worker buddies who got replaced by machines, if you don't know what I'm talking about. Automation, hiring freezes, and lay offs come most quickly to those unionized jobs where union overreach occurs. And you know what happens then? It's no longer employer against laborer, but laborer against laborer. Why don't you try to keep up with my posts by reading them with less confirmation bias, please? What you don't understand is that I know some of the people who are asking for more of this money. Many of them are people who consistently make bad choices in their lives, and complain when people refuse to give them a handout after it. The people who are responsible for hiring have to deal with people like this on a regular basis. And many of them are trying to KEEP them, regardless of how little value they bring. This is the type of stuff that MANY employers agonize over when they are debating whether to let insufficiently productive employees go, especially those who they care about. If you could please take off your blinders for a moment and realize that I'm not insulting your precious unions, perhaps you'd understand what I'm saying (and what I'm not saying).Cloak-Wait a minute....so you're telling me that that millions of burger flipping jobs have been outsourced? And who is the cause for this lack of "meaningful growth over the last decade? The guy who is hiring the burger flipper? Maybe it's deeper.No. What is the market value of burger flipping jobs when millions of other type industry jobs are outsourced? What part of that did you not understand? Did I state that millions of fast food jobs have been outsourced? Can you honestly keep up with this discussion? No you can't. You have dug yourself a jingoistic hole. And now some of us have to suffer through as you yet again modulate your argument to suit points you cannot even make, that aren't relevant to this discussion. Once again, you're over your head. The whole point of this thread was what people think about Fast Food Workers(FFWs) wanting to unionize. Basically your point is that they should accept reality and that they are unskilled peons who don't deserve a raise. Then you went off on an uninformed elementary diatribe about the market value of labor. Using analogies that are too simple for 3rd graders. Why don't you take a shot at my question regarding the market value of labor when 10,000 FFWs become unionized? Use your understanding of the market value of labor to explain the values then. Can you do that? Can you explain the market value of labor when through a process of protest, education, information dissemination and public awareness a certain industry sector's labor base becomes disaffected? Why don't you take a crack at that Cloak. By the way...here's a hint. That's the public, through unions, actively effecting and changing the market value of labor. Try to avoid using analogies like: "Trading bottled faucet water for cars." That don't do to good! Same with imagining a job like "kicking rocks around". Also leave your jingoism and other parroted crap at the door.
The people working in the fast food industry are not "kicking rocks". They're human beings preparing and serving food, sustenance, to other human beings, working hard in a hot, greasy unpleasant, high pressure setting.Again, it's an analogy, and if you are trying to understand me, you will find a very important point in it. Bottom line (again): there are people who are asking for more than their market value. To a lot of people, that just translates to people asking for a goodwill handout. That's fine too. If someone is willing to give you a handout, then that's fine. Just asking for help is always an option. But let's not disguise this as something else. And let's also not ignore the fact that this could have unintended consequences as well, and not all of them are good. Who's to say what their market value is? (Hint: it is not what the employer is willing to pay). What is the market value of any supply the employer needs to continue his operation? Many business-owners are struggling or have gone out of business because they couldn't aford the market value of gasoline. How far would they get if they told their gasoline suppliers that what they are charging is not maket value and that they would not pay another penny? Would he cry crocodile tears that the gasoline suppliers are putting him out of business because they are charging more than he thinks they should? What does the business owner do when his own customers accuse him of charging too much? Does he lower the price for them? Lois 1. The business owner can indeed whine about it. Sometimes he does. (this usually doesn't fix anything, so after he's done, he moves on to rest of his options, unlike some other people) 2. He can go to a competitor (if there is one available). 3. If there is no competitor, he can take a look at the option of cutting costs in order to stay in business while still making a reasonable profit. (of course, his employees may suffer and whine about it, but they've gotta follow the same list of options that he does). 4. If that's not possible, he can quit the business and try something different. Any questions? Not at all. But the same goes if he can't afford to pay his workers the price they set for their labor. Any questions? Yep, as I've already stated in parenthesis "the employees have to go through the same list of options". So if the worker chooses to not budge, then the business owner either invests in more automated technology to replace them, enacts a hiring freeze, or just lays off a few and distributes the tasks among those that are remaining. Now you understand. Good job.
Cloak-If you could please take off your blinders for a moment and realize that I'm not insulting your precious unions, perhaps you'd understand what I'm saying (and what I'm not saying).No, I really don't think you are saying anything. Like other threads you don't have any points. You just like to argue. So you are agreeing that other factors like unions also determine wages. Aside from this "market value" idea of yours. Now that you have conceded this we can move onto your next hackneyed idea about unions over-reaching and negative consequences. See all the pages you wasted trying to explain elementary "market forces" and "value of labor"? Let's recap too while we are at it. People can legally form unions, and that will dictate what pay scale and benefits are. Unions and education and direct action and social/ political campaigns adjust what employers will pay for wages and benefits. Not just some idea about trading "bottled faucet water for cars" that you call "market value." It takes alot of hubris to come on here and attempt to explain economics and markets like you did. Using 3rd grade analogies. And you don't even know that you're underwater. That's the worst part! It's having to discuss this with you. Secondly, now that we know you realize that Unions will dictate fairly, through a contract what employers are going to pay, we are left with your opinion on what FFWs should be paid. You've been quite clear on this. Obviously I hope we can move onto the next phase of your position. That is that once Unions(and not your amorphous "market value")determine what wages will be, you will counter that that is harmful still to your "amorphous market values" ideal. The one you analogized with trading bottled water for cars. So lets' journey into your elementary ideas on how unions can be harmful and how they upset the market value of labor. Shall we? Keep your posts shorter too. Condense your main points. Then we can see how naked they are. And ridiculous. Also, if you feel that any of my points are wrong, or need further discussion, please point them out.
Cloak-What you don’t understand is that I know some of the people who are asking for more of this money. Many of them are people who consistently make bad choices in their lives, and complain when people refuse to give them a handout after it. The people who are responsible for hiring have to deal with people like this on a regular basis. And many of them are trying to KEEP them, regardless of how little value they bring. This is the type of stuff that MANY employers agonize over when they are debating whether to let insufficiently productive employees go, especially those who they care about.This is what you need to cull from your posts. Here's an example above. Is this supposed to be proof of something? Is this indicative of the FFws? Really? I can't take you seriously with this kind of garbage. We are talking about a gigantic multi-billion dollar INDUSTRY, with thousands and thousands of employees in every state. Not some folks you know down at the corner McD's. You bring too much anecdote and emotion into your discussions. I'm talking history, economics and law. You are talking about some friends you have at McDonalds and how FFWs deserve the low wages they get because they didn't apply themselves.
This is what you need to cull from your posts. Here's an example above. Is this supposed to be proof of something? Is this indicative of the FFws? Really? I can't take you seriously with this kind of garbage.It's posts like this as well as many others (e.g. "THIS IS JUST CONJECTURE AND WINDBAGGERY!!!!") that show that you're the one that's getting emotional friend. Like I said, I think you need to take a break or something.
We are talking about a gigantic multi-billion dollar INDUSTRY, with thousands and thousands of employees in every state.Yep.
I'm talking history, economics and law.As am I. And stop freaking out whenever I bring in some personal examples. They aren't the only things I've said, and you know that. Seriously, you need to relax. You are taking this thing way too personally, friend.
No, I really don't think you are saying anything. Like other threads you don't have any points. You just like to argue.No, you just suffer from confirmation bias is all. And you don't know how to have a civil engagement with people that you've decided that you don't like. Not my problem.
So you are agreeing that other factors like unions also determine wages. Aside from this "market value" idea of yours. Now that you have conceded this we can move onto your next hackneyed idea about unions over-reaching and negative consequences. See all the pages you wasted trying to explain elementary "market forces" and "value of labor"?Nope, I've conceded that from the very beginning. You're the one who just got irked by the rest. That's your problem. I didn't invent the "market value" idea though. Thanks for the credit, but it wasn't me.
It takes alot of hubris to come on here and attempt to explain economics and markets like you did. Using 3rd grade analogies. And you don't even know that you're underwater. That's the worst part! It's having to discuss this with you.Nobody was talking to you in the first place friend. I was responding to comments by Jeciron and Lois. You're the one that jumped in. If you are that upset over this, then find another forum. People like Lois obviously need to educate themselves on basic economic principles, and I demonstrated it. Perhaps you know better, but then again, I wasn't addressing you, was I? YOU are the one who had a seizure after that. Maybe it was my "jingoism" that was showing, right (whatever the heck that actually means to you)? Is that what it was?
Secondly, now that we know you realize that Unions will dictate fairly, through a contract what employers are going to pay, we are left with your opinion on what FFWs should be paid. You've been quite clear on this.I didn't say what I think they should be paid. It sounds like your confirmation bias is showing again. You need to do something about that, because it shows up in pretty much every thread in which we discuss anything.
So lets' journey into your elementary ideas on how unions can be harmful and how they upset the market value of labor. Shall we? Keep your posts shorter too. Condense your main points. Then we can see how naked they are. And ridiculous. Also, if you feel that any of my points are wrong, or need further discussion, please point them out.You are way too emotional to talk to. You have demonstrated, countless times that you cannot handle disagreement. You blow up all over the place. When you calm down, I'll be ready to continue.
However coal mines used to be the McDonald's of today.I get the analogy here, but I don't think it's accurate.
What are some thoughts on these revolutionary brothers and sisters? (sarcasm)I'd need to know if $15 dollars an hour is an amount of money that people can live on up to standards they can reasonable aspire to? If it isn't then I'm on their side and I think we should all be. Perhaps it is I dunno? StephenIt varies from city to city, but in NYC, $15.00 per hour is what they're asking for. They make about $7.50 right now, which is the minimum wage in New York state - it's not enough, they say. NYC basically a place for the rich and poor, though. The middle class doesn't belong there. What are reasonable aspirational standards BTW?